New Replies (Page 738)
"...I don't think TOHO would allow it."
Bingo.
Kaiju-Man,
In what way are you confused by the fifth form's status?
"I can not take you seriously at this point."
Which is somewhat ironic given your next statement...
"As for the fifth form not moving, well, either Godzilla is frozen or he's recharging his energy. While recharging he wasn't moving. Plus the frozen image and the recharging image, when Godzilla is first recharging his energy, look a lot of alike."
Now hold on there, Ben. You just mentioned there's no definite proof of Anno's intentions one way or another based solely on the fact it wasn't in the script. I know for fact that there is no mention in the script that Godzilla switched from a frozen state to his recharging mode in the script either. You can't call foul on one thing because of a point you made and then come back and violate your own argument with a new assumption. That's cherry picking.
"So this could be a continuity error after all."
Indeed.
"There is no explanation unless that there is in fact a time gap. You can look at the image where he is completely frozen, and the final shot. They show Godzilla in a completely different stance. That's head position, mouth being different, tail tips being different, and most importantly, the color differences between the frozen shot and the recharging shot."
So Godzilla moved and no one noticed? Godzilla was considered such a massive threat that the UN took control of the situation--But now he's not being monitored? Had Godzilla moved at all the countdown would have resumed--This is explained in detail to Yaguchi by the end of the film. The coagulate is not a solution, so when Godzilla likely returns, as will the threat of nuclear detonation. The numbers would have started ticking had he moved.
"He can't be out of energy I'm assuming? Jack buddy, the film does what it does. The fact is, as I've pointed out, it does happen after being frozen, and again it could have a time gap there because he might have been recharging to make it look like he was still frozen."
That's the point, though. The film does what it does and what it does is not perfect nor iron clad without continuity errors. There are slip-ups like this even before the shot in question--Are we going to talk in circles about those as well? There's no evidence to suggest the coagulate (there's no "n" in the word) stopped working and Godzilla switched into stand-by mode. If that happened Japan would be under threat of nuclear annihilation again.
There is, however, evidence of Anno wanting to save the shot for the last dramatic beat because it's what he's done visually since Neon Genesis Evangelion in the 1990s. Cinema is visual art form--It's not meant to always be linear and perfect, it's meant to convey or elicit an emotion at the right point in time. Revealing the creatures sprouting out of Godzilla's tail before he was frozen was not the right point for that dramatic beat. And even if the fifth form started sprouting beforehand it still means the coagulate caught up to them somehow.
1. Godzilla (2002)
2. Kiryu
3. Gamera
4. Mechagodzilla 2
5. SpaceGodzilla
Killing Godzilla is a bad move, IMO. I still think GvsK will have the cliche team up, but that isn't necessarily a bad thing if done correctly. I really don't understand the fixation some people have about seeing Godzilla die.
@Chris
Thank you. When I found the picture, I said to myself that this is the best picture I've ever seen of Godzilla 2014. I even have the picture as the wallpaper on my phone.
And I do hope that there are Shobijin in the movie.
I agree GKOTM, an areal pursuit or some kind of areal battle would be incredible to watch! The theory about the Bounty Hunters going after the Shobijin could make sense. Privately contracted to extract them in hopes of studying and unleashing Mothra?
Btw, awesome profile pic!
Oh I'm definitely convinced that some sort of major battle between a military/militaries will happen between them and one of the monsters, hopefully it's against King Ghidorah, when he first appears.
Could the bounty hunters be after the Shobijin, if there's to be any, like in Ghidorah: The Three-Headed Monster, even though they were hit men going after the Princess, or look for other scientists to help rid or study the monsters?
The hiring of the pilots part, I hope that's to be used for a chasing scene against Rodan, Mothra, and King Ghidorah. Some aerial combat between jets and them would be awesome.
They're probably being sent to find and possibly kill Godzilla and possibly the other monsters that will be in the movie.
Now this is interesting.
I think at least Godzilla VS Kong is a guaranteed success, because almost everybody knows them. Whether Godzilla: King of Monsters is is still unknown, but I can imagine people will see it because "Godzilla" is in the title.
Thus, I think it is feasible that more movies could come after, but I just can't shake the feeling that Godzilla VS Kong is the big finale and it's going to end after that anyway. I hope not, but we will have to see.
Kraken stats
:height 415ft
Width due to four main legs added 570ft
Weight: 120,000 tonnes
Weapons: thousands of rows of pointed teeth, two arms with razor sharp claws, tenticals of different size/length.
Gojira stats
:height 355ft
Width nose to tail 550ft
Weight 90,000 tonnes
Weapons: hundreds of serated teeth, razor sharp claws, 200ft tail of pure muscle that allows for gravity defying drop kicks, atomic breath blue and red spiral ray, electromegnetism can litteraly become a magnet/lightning rod.
^It's an interesting set-up. But the only thing is that like others have said, Monarch doesn't appear to want Godzilla dead, so it doesn't make sense why they would try to make Kong kill him. But still, I like it.
I think we will definitely see a few movies after GvK. Godzilla: King of the Monsters and Godzilla v Kong I think are almost guaranteed fairly good box office earnings, not only because of the fan base, but because the average movie-goer won't give up the opportunity to see 4 kaiju beat the hell out of eachother on-screen, especially if they have household names like Godzilla and King Kong. Jordan Vogt-Roberts said that he would like to make a film about Marlow and Gunpei's 28 years on Skull Island, although he may have been joking. I still think that wouldn't be a bad idea, but it probably won't happen.
It also depends on the fanbase's reaction to both those films. If those films are absolute trash and we would rather not see anymore films again, they won't be made, but I don't think that will happen either.
Manda could also exist if the MonsterVerse followed the laws of physics.
A lot of the Tokusatsu effects directors poured their hearts and souls into making these films. If the rumor of Kawakita-San is true with his drinking problem, then I partially blame Toho for it considering Godzilla vs. Biollante is by far his best effects work. But because Toho deemed it a less successful movie at the box office, that could be a reason to say Kawakita picked up a drinking habit.
I'm normally not the kind of guy to discredit any of these tokusatsu masters but, I felt like Kawakita could have done so much more and better effects as a whole. I mean, all the flying monsters did lack wing movement in the 90's heisei films and that was a major let down. Compared to Eiji Tsuburaya and Shinji Higuchi, they incorporated the wing movement to near perfection. Kawakita-San did do the one thing great though. He created some of the best Godzilla designs, my preferable ones Ghidogoji and BioGoji.
He did use a little too much spark effects and glitter though. While that is nice in its own perspective, I felt like it was a little overboard.
It's a shame Kawakita passed away though. He deserves the credit for at least stepping up to take on Godzilla, but like I said I feel like Toho may have had a bigger impact on his effects works more than anything. All in all, I do thank Kawakita for doing what he did.
@Huge-Ben - Yes, I certainly am learning. Still a bit confused by the whole status of the humanoids tho.
@Kaiju-Man257,
Apologies again for getting off topic. Me and Gman have discussions like this all the time. In fact, you should see our discussions on Twitter lol.
Hopefully you're learning more about the film now since we've gotten to discussing it.
Sorry for posting kind of late, but I feel like if Godzilla dies, maybe Godzilla Jr. will appear and replace him, like in Godzilla VS Destoroyah. I feel like completely killing of Godzilla wouldn't be a good idea, as arguably he is the "title character" of the series. If he were to die, I think he should be replaced. No Godzilla at all doesn't seem like a good idea and I don't think TOHO would allow it.
Ah jeez, I'm sorry that this has kind of exploded. I didn't mean for this to happen!
1. Eiji Tsuburaya.
2. Shinji Higuchi.
3. Teruyoshi Nakano.
4. Makoto Kamiya.
5. Koichi Kawakita.
Gman,
I feel so honored when you quote my words. Just a reminder, I can do the same. Here we go.
"A) we can't be sure it was evolving after given Anno's penchant for saving dramatic shots a later time. B) if it didn't work fully why aren't the fifth form creatures mobile?"
You have said I have made my points with the final shots of this film. I can not take you seriously at this point.Anno might have decided to make it a dramatic shot, but there is not a given yes or no that that is what he wanted to do. As for the fifth form not moving, well, either Godzilla is frozen or he's recharging his energy. While recharging he wasn't moving. Plus the frozen image and the recharging image, when Godzilla is first recharging his energy, look a lot of alike.
"The whole problem with the theory that they sprouted after the fact is that we see them immobilized."
Correct. Again the fact is I've pointed out the images thoroughly and their differences. The fact is Jack, it happens after being frozen.
"So they either start sprouting from the tail before the coagulante took effect or they attempted to sprout after the fact somehow and failed to fully form due to the coagulante."
Again, the images and the film show it happens after being frozen. It's there. The tail tip, the color of Godzilla's skin, face positions are all changed by the shots. Now, that could be a continuity error if he was frozen first, somehow melted but was recharging instead. Remember once again, he wasn't moving while recharging earlier in the film.So this could be a continuity error after all. He might have been recharging instead of fully frozen.
"There's really no other explanation outside of those two because the final shot clearly shows them frozen."
There is no explanation unless that there is in fact a time gap. You can look at the image where he is completely frozen, and the final shot. They show Godzilla in a completely different stance. That's head position, mouth being different, tail tips being different, and most importantly, the color differences between the frozen shot and the recharging shot.
"Lets say the fifth form tried to sprout after the coagulante took effect for some reason. That would not change the fact that it froze the fifth form mid-transformation."
He can't be out of energy I'm assuming? Jack buddy, the film does what it does. The fact is, as I've pointed out, it does happen after being frozen, and again it could have a time gap there because he might have been recharging to make it look like he was still frozen.
@Gman,
You're perfectly entitled to your preferences and opinions, but I wish I could have you talk with Robert Scott Field as we did regarding his memories and conversations with Kawakita, especially shortly before his death. Scott tells of a man who was extremely passionate about the kaiju genre, and was thrilled of the coming of Shin because it meant his beloved Gojira was continuing to be cherished and given new life. He passed the torch to others in the hope that they would keep the kaiju world alive and well, and could speak for hours of his passion for the tradition of it. That's the picture Scott Field gave us, so you may not think the Heisei series was particularly masterful, but don't discredit the man otherwise, by all accounts he gave his heart and soul to these movies.
Godzilla: King of the Monsters,
I felt like Kawakita showed a great deal of promise with Godzilla vs. Biollante, but he went backwards after that. He was given budgets 5-7x that of Tsuburaya, Arikawa and Nakano (sans '84), but never excelled.
I've made the comparison before, but I simply do not understand how Shinji Higuchi was able to make Gamera: Guardian of the Universe as good and detailed as it was on a budget of $4.5 million, but Kawakita decided to use Bandai Destoroyahs in very obvious shots of Godzilla vs. Destoroyah on a budget of $10 million.
Many have blamed Kawakita's supposed drinking problems on his lack of evolution. (Considering he died of liver failure, there may be some merit to that.) Others think he just didn't have a lot more creativity in him after Biollante. Whatever the case is I usually consider him one of least resourceful effects directors of the genre--He just seemed like he was phoning his work in, especially after 1991.
Godzilla: King of the Monsters,
It has been confirmed that the creatures sprouting from Godzilla's tail was actually Godzilla 5th form: A collective of humanoid Godzillas that would have supposedly worked together much like humanity did to defeat him.
"If the coagulante worked fully, why was it still evolving after being frozen?"
A) We can't be sure it was evolving after given Anno's penchant for saving dramatic shots at a later time. B) If it didn't work fully why aren't the fifth form creatures mobile? The whole problem with the theory that they sprouted after the fact is that we see them immobilized. So they either started sprouting from the tail before the coagulate took effect or they attempted to sprout after the fact somehow and failed to fully form due to the coagulate. There's really no other explanation outside of those two because the final shot clearly shows them frozen.
"We can look at this as an artistic view all day, but the film itself proves it has a purpose. Why wouldn't it?"
Indeed. And that purpose could very well be to just fool the audience through a continuity error so the scene has a great impact later.
"I don't believe in this "continuity error.""
That is your choice.
"The fact is, it still happens after being frozen. They state in the film directly that the coagulante would only temporarily immobilized him. "
Lets say the fifth form tried to sprout out of the tail after the coagulate took effect for some reason. That would still not change the fact that it froze the fifth form mid-transformation.
They said the coagulate is a temporary solution, yes, but they didn't go in to any side-effects it might have on Godzilla's body once he does wake up. This could lead to an excellent out for keeping Godzilla grounded in his current form and no longer capable of evolving into something less recognizable.
"...especially with Koichi's mastery of special effects."
Eh... That's debatable. I will say I enjoyed his exclusive Pachinko Machine footage. While it's not groundbreaking some of it is honestly his best material...
If the coagulante worked fully, why was it still evolving after being frozen? We can look at this as an artistic view all day, but the film itself proves it has a purpose. Why wouldn't it?
I don't believe in this "continuity error." It wouldn't be there to begin with if it had no meaning or purpose. The fact is, it still happens after being frozen. They state in the film directly that the coagulante would only temporarily immobilized him.
Of course, I'm all about a traditional Godzilla silhouette. But, as you have stated multiple times, Shin Godzilla is more of a stand alone film.
Huge-Ben,
You've made your point and case with the screenshots multiple times, but that evidence proves to be completely moot if Anno made a continuity error on purpose just so the final shot had a greater impact. Why reveal something so shocking and bizarre, which is intended to be the final dramatic beat of a movie, when it can be saved for its intended purpose? It makes little dramatic sense and the director has made decisions like this multiple times before--Whether it be visible in his script or not. (Why would it? There's no point in drawing attention to it.)
In any case it likely doesn't matter either way. Godzilla's 5th form was halted by the coagulate and it's still entirely possible it did enough damage to his body to render the emerging form inert and/or his body incapable of evolving in to more extreme forms--A direction I would prefer a Shin Godzilla sequel to take in order to maintain a more traditional Godzilla silhouette.
@Dragon King Ultrazero80 - Neato. I like it!
I call them "Godzilla's Legion".
@Huge-Ben - Thank you! I appreciate it!
@Dragon King Ultrazero80 - Sure, why not?
I thought of a name for those Humanoids, would you guys like to hear it?
