New Replies (Page 394)
MincraftDinoKaiju:
I know the Superhero tangent wasn't relevant, but saying those characters are somehow praising radiation is wrong, which is what I was addressing. That whole block is devoted to the superhero point and comics in general, not the overall discussion, so none of the arguments will work with the Godzilla argument because they're not supposed to. You're reading a lot of those points out of context, so correcting them will only derail this further.
G.H. (Gman) said he was wrapping up his thoughts, so I just wanted to correct his use of superheroes in his argument and restate my original point, leaving the opportunity for the discussion to wind down, which at that point it largely already had.
I never said they weren't intellectual arguments, all I wanted to say was that they were highly intellectual arguments surrounding a core point that has NOT been confirmed in any capacity, just speculated on and theorized for and against. "Is MV Godzilla an inherently pro-nuclear metaphor?" was the question, we got into an extended tangential debate jumping off the conclusion/assumption that it was, the part about whether it actually was or not got largely disregarded.
Ergo: I think we're reading too much into this, it's okay if you don't like the movie, let's not get into a huge debate about the deeper meaning of something that was only a question in the first place.
I do tend to make depressive threads.
"Spider-Man, Superman and Hulk aren't pro-nuclear/radiation, they used what was at the time a new and still mysterious branch of science to handwave their superpowers,"
Wow. Just. Wow. The air whooshing over the scalp must've made a terrific sound though.
I can't believe there's people in the fandom like this. I truly, truly can not--And yet, I've been a part of it for so long I'm not entirely sure why I'm surprised.
So, using radiation as an excuse for heroes, doesn't speak to Western values and views on radiation whatsoever? Got it. Check.
What a depressing thread...
Hence, "as we know it, no longer exists".
The only MCU character that has somewhat of a random chance against any kaiju is Thanos but only with his infinity gauntlet and even then it might end up killing him.
Houtua are an evolutionary offshoot of mankind, they are still biologically humans at a cladistic viewpoint. Just as Birds are still theropod dinosaurs, Houtua are still humans there for humanity is still alive and not extinct because they left behind decedents. Also the Houtua can interbreed with humans so there is another indication that they are humans.
At a scientific standpoint the two "species" would be viewed
Baseline Humans: Homo sapiens sapiens
Houtua: Homo sapiens houtua
2019 is bigger, more menacing (physical appearance, as well as behavior), his teeth are larger (Definitely not the same size as was stated back in 2014, so I would love it if someone calculated it for 2019's tooth size and gave a proper answer.), he acts slightly more benevolent, and he has scars before he fought Ghidorah (presumably from MUTO Prime [wish it was actually stated in the film]).
There could be more, though. I will have to look back and update it later.
This looks awesome, but since I don't gamble, it sucks that I have to pass this.
@Gomi: Ninja Monster
"Um, hold up. Spider-Man, Superman and Hulk aren't pro-nuclear/radiation, they used what was at the time a new and still mysterious branch of science to handwave their superpowers,"
Ok, sure, but that argument isn't helpful with our current discussion.
"people have been doing that for centuries with much less "objectively dangerous" breakthroughs,"
So if that's the case, then where's the horror movie about sticky notes or paper? See why your argument doesn't work here?
"I'm pretty sure the reason behind Superman's power was "alien" first and "sun" when they needed an explanation(plus he debuted before WWII and nuclear weapons)."
If that was the case, then you should remember that at the time, the word alien meant something like the Martians from War of the Worlds, not a humanoid from another planet. Again, it goes against your argument.
"Hulk has always been a tragic figure, the Gamma radiation is viewed as a curse, no matter how hard he tries to fix things it always reverts to worse state."
That's not even his character arc at all. Why are you trying so hard to win a losing battle?
"If you've noticed, as our understanding of radiation grew, character's origins were tweaked to address this in new interpretations. Spider-Man got bitten by a bioengineered spider, Hulk experimented on himself with gamma radiation instead of getting hit with a random explosion, Superman's physiology takes radiation differently than humans. And if you really want to be picky, more recent comics have dealt with the negatives of the radioactive origins of those characters,"
Yeah, but it doesn't mean you can do that if the character is anti-nuclear, like Godzilla.
"Spider-Man ended up killing Mary Jane once because his bodily fluids were just as radioactive as he was."
Yeah, but the key word is once. And they never mention it in the movies, so that argument is in vain, at best.
"I'm fine if we want to end the discussion, but I needed to point out that trying to say something is pro-nuclear solely because it doesn't explicitly condemn radiation is just plain wrong. Plenty of franchises and stories use it is as a powerful catalyst to get the plot moving and nothing more, which is why my initial argument was that we were reading too much into this, not everything needs to be a deep philosophical commentary to be worth enjoying."
First of all, let's not end this because there is still much more needed to be discussed. And second, Godzilla's whole point is to be anti-nuclear, so if course there is going to be some backlash towards him becoming pro-nuclear, and those backlashes have plenty of reasons, so they aren't just mindless, one point arguments, so don't make that excuse.
"It feels like this whole pro-nuclear MonsterVerse thing is just another excuse to dunk on KOTM, which fine, everyone's entitled to their opinions, but please don't try to make things out to be a war of ideals when they're in reality probably not, at least not intentionally."
And like I said before, these aren't just mindless, one-point backlashes with no real reason behind it. These are well-thought, highly intellectual backlashes with well and thought-out reasons.
TheLazyFish:
For a lazy fish, you seem to be tired a lot. :P
Gomi: Ninja Monster
Sorry, really sleepy right now and so my memory isn't all that great right now lol
TheLazyFish:
G.H. (Gman) already addressed that point about the Showa Era in a response to me, which boiled down to "A victim of nuclear power doing good does not make the core message pro-nuclear." I don't quite agree with all his points, but it has been covered, might want to check back a page to see what he thinks.
Also I think a point of note is that while Godzilla has been overtly heroic on many occasions, aside from Showa those have been primarily American adaptations, which might be a part of what he's trying to say.
Gomi: Ninja Monster
Ditto
G.H. (Gman)
We're not saying we're ok with a pro-nuclear Godzilla... but this wouldn't exactly be the first time? Later in the Showa era Godzilla was practically a good guy. And what about Minilla? They didn't seem all that anti-nuclear, because they were inherently pro-nuclear by saving the world and not even leaving radiation in the places they pass through. Not to dunk on the Showa era at all, but at least MV Godzilla leaves the area he passes through uninhabitable for humans. And don't say "oh but he didn't start off as pro-nuclear" because it's the same case here. Everyone was raving about the threat of radiation and with the nuclear plant disaster at the beginning and the MUTOs, it seems to have properly shown mostly anti-nuclear things. Maybe Godzilla seemed kind of like a hero, but most people doubted that throughout the film and it was constantly explained and re-explained that Godzilla was "an alpha predator" and just doing his job, so at WORST (or, best for nuclear?) he was a neutral entity. Honestly, this pro-nuclear stuff based on Godzilla fighting an evil Kaiju because he doesn't like them is faulty at best because of all the previous movies, especially later in the Showa era. It's not intentionally pro-nuclear, and doesn't really seem to be pro-nuclear. Gomi here is arguing it's not, and I'm arguing that and/or his hero thing is just set up for an "evil" arc to balance it. Even if the latter part is just theory, it's not exactly a flimsy one. And the former, again, IT DOESN'T SEEM TO BE PRO-NUCLEAR.
Even if we did decide it's "ok for it to be pro-nuclear," which we aren't actually saying (well, I said that earlier, BUT what I meant is that it's ok for it to be pro-nuclear-ISH. Not full on pro-nuclear, but more of a muddled ground like what nuclear power kind of is), so what? Sure, by your opinion (and to be honest, some of my own too) we'd kind of be "betraying the franchise" or "missing the entire meaning," but so what if we are? I mean, come on, so what? I mean, is it really any of your business to be "dumbfounded that there are plenty okay with it and defending it?" I mean, is it your personal business, does it really warrant insult? Because if you really think it does, I'm not sure you're the kind of fan I'd like to hang around. It's not like we're hating on it or insulting it, or even critiquing it. We're explaining why it might SEEM pro-nuclear. It really isn't more pro-nuclear than the late Showa era or Final Wars. By the way, when you mentioned the hulk, I thought you were talking about Hanna Barbara's Godzilla or late Showa era Godzilla at first lol
MinecraftDinoKaiju
That sounds like what I feel like should happen in GVK. I think if they introduce Zilla, it should be as a villain in a Rodan, Mothra, or Godzilla movie (but a brief villain). Not a main villain, just a Kaiju that they have to fight eventually before getting to the big bad. Zilla eventually gets her own movie and destroys a city, but then has to fight a much bigger, much more dangerous creature. She kills it with her smarts, humans cheer, and she pushes over one last building on her way to the ocean lol. Maybe a movie where Zilla and Rodan team up or fight or something?
The best one by far (in my opinion) is the one for the PS3 and PS4, and even if it was poorly received by general audiences, it is still a fun game to play.
Ok, so getting back on topic, I don't think this plot will work with Monsterverse Godzilla as it is just too out-of-line with his "character". (Quotations are there because we know very little of it as of 2019. You're welcome, future readers.)
It depends on what you are looking for. If you want a popcorn film over a film with quality, this is the film for you. But if you are looking for vice-versa, then this film might be a bit of a gripe for you.
But it really depends on what you are looking for.
I would make a movie where Zilla is introduced, fights Godzilla in Act 1, a new original monster appears in Act 2, Zilla vs. Godzilla "rematch" in the beginning of Act 3, new monster showing up in the middle of Act 3, Zilla vs new monster, and then Zilla and Godzilla working together and defeating the new monster. (The whole point is so that the character of Zilla can hopefully be redeemed from his current status.)
Um, hold up. Spider-Man, Superman and Hulk aren't pro-nuclear/radiation, they used what was at the time a new and still mysterious branch of science to handwave their superpowers, people have been doing that for centuries with much less "objectively dangerous" breakthroughs, look at the Rocketeer or Buck Rogers. I'm pretty sure the reason behind Superman's power was "alien" first and "sun" when they needed an explanation(plus he debuted before WWII and nuclear weapons). Hulk has always been a tragic figure, the Gamma radiation is viewed as a curse, no matter how hard he tries to fix things it always reverts to worse state. If you've noticed, as our understanding of radiation grew, character's origins were tweaked to address this in new interpretations. Spider-Man got bitten by a bioengineered spider, Hulk experimented on himself with gamma radiation instead of getting hit with a random explosion, Superman's physiology takes radiation differently than humans. And if you really want to be picky, more recent comics have dealt with the negatives of the radioactive origins of those characters, Spider-Man ended up killing Mary Jane once because his bodily fluids were just as radioactive as he was.
I'm fine if we want to end the discussion, but I needed to point out that trying to say something is pro-nuclear solely because it doesn't explicitly condemn radiation is just plain wrong. Plenty of franchises and stories use it is as a powerful catalyst to get the plot moving and nothing more, which is why my initial argument was that we were reading too much into this, not everything needs to be a deep philosophical commentary to be worth enjoying.
It feels like this whole pro-nuclear MonsterVerse thing is just another excuse to dunk on KOTM, which fine, everyone's entitled to their opinions, but please don't try to make things out to be a war of ideals when they're in reality probably not, at least not intentionally.
No,I know no marvel charecter.There tiny wimps aganist him.
Xenotaris,
A form of humans. The remnants of the human race were largely killed on the Aratrum. The ones still on Earth will likely get phased out by the Houtua, who are only part human. The human race as we know it no longer exists.
But on agreeable note, Alien Covenant, those colonist are all DOOMED!
Xenotaris Point taken. You win.
still wrong about The Night of the Living Dead were everyone dies, humanity survived that night just not the main characters (mostly due to the carelessness from the MC, the MC accidentally killed the young guy and the pretty girl by leaving a flaming torch next to gasoline. The zombies were lured to the house due to the main cast gathering in the main house rather than bunkering down in the basement were ironically the MC uses to wait out the zombies. he died at the end for not talking to the fellow survivors and was shot by mistake due to the survivors thinking he was a zombie)
Blair Witch Project. Everybody dies.
Yet humans still survived in the anime trilogy
I suppose one could step outside of sci fi to see every body die.
They kinda did this already in the anime trilogy.
dk,
Getting back to your original question, my opinion probably leans closest with The Hooded Figure--I definitely agree with him that it's one of the lesser films in the franchise. It does a fine job with the monsters and visuals, but drops the ball with literally everything else. It's an aggressively stupid movie, but even dumb movies have charm and this doesn't quite nail it. However, the fan service obviously won over plenty of people, so that's worth taking in to account.
Ultimately, it's not a must-watch film by any stretch of the imagination, but, like most movies, I'd say it's worth at least one watch. Personally, I'm just happy to have Criterion's Showa Era set to fill my Godzilla void.
Well obviously I was gone too long to catch all the venom this time around, so I'll simply wrap up my thoughts with this:
I can't believe I live in a world where there's a pro-nuclear Godzilla movie, but I think I'm even more dumbfounded that there are plenty okay with it and defending it. Why should Japan not have an entire franchise dedicated to the dangers of nuclear proliferation? After all, the United States already has its own franchises that praise it without fault! Radioactive spiders give people powers, remember? An alien hero standing for truth, justice and the American way gets energy from the sun's radiation without any of those pesky negative effects. "Gamma" radiation makes a different type of mean, green fighting machine. But how dare the Godzilla franchise fly in the opposite direction, right? It's only been doing it for 65 years.
We have enough western franchises doing that and putting the pro-nuke stamp on Godzilla is the most cynical form of whitewashing we could've committed against the property. I have no problem with the series tackling other issues, but to contradict its core basics doesn't speak highly about the filmmakers behind the 2019 flick. I have no doubt Dougherty's a fan, but I don't think he's the kind of fan I'd want to hang out with.
I ignore the movie and just call her Zilla, Godzilla98, or the Atlantic Godzilla (on my spacebattles Kaiju Files)
Zilla looks pretty damn awesome. It's a shame, really. Could have been a really cool Godzilla. The only Zilla worthy of the Godzilla name, in my opinion, is Zilla Junior. He stays true to the actual character of Godzilla, even though the radiation is kinda downplayed (it is a cartoon, after all. It can't be held to the same standard of radiation based horror that the OG movie was, similar to the Hanna Barbara Godzilla. Still a Godzilla despite downplaying radiation. Arguably this show still does show the horrors of it, just in easier way to conceptualize for a child and not quite as horrifying, the mutations. Almost all of them are born from pollution and oil and the such, so this strongly lends in favor of Zilla Junior being a Godzilla). I mean, it's like how in GMK the radiation aspect was downplayed, but it still had a lot to say and was meaningful (while still also showing radiation as horrible/a power that can be used for bad) in a different way. Zilla Junior, despite being descended from a creature undeserving (in my opinion) of the name Godzilla, has earned the name of Godzilla. I'll probably always treat him as such, but still refer to him as Zilla Junior. I do accidentally call him Godzilla sometimes though lol. Once again, a lot of this is just my opinion lol.
Okay at least people love Zilla's design, but yeah the 98 movie should of had the classic godzilla themes and characterization
I'm going to try and stay away from the trailers and news about it. A lot was spoiled in the KOTM trailers, so I want to leave everything as a surprise this time lol
2019 Godzilla is more badass
'19 seems to have a slightly thinner snout and a longer neck, and of course his dorsal plates are different. He's a bit beefier too.
This is awesome.
I'll let the release of the trailer surprise me as well. Otherwise it's just beating a dead horse.
I'll let the release of the trailer surprise me as well. Otherwise it's just beating a dead horse.
