New Replies (Page 637)
"Anyways, there's plenty of modern Japanese monsters that aren't kaiju. First off you got anything from the Pokemon, Digimon, Yokai-Watch, etc. None of those are kaiju, and no one refers to them as such even in Japanese culture."
Yes, but a lot of these are anime and have assimilated their own look and tone for creatures in that particular style and its sub-genres. Again, this is about genre and using the word where it fits correctly. No Pokemon aren't kaiju, I'll grant you that. They're their own nomenclature but, by the same token, if they aren't kaiju why are MUTO? It makes no sense.
"In terms of live action, you got Snake-women in a number of live action horror films and a number of humanoid creatures that appear in Latitude Zero that aren't kaiju."
Yes, they're known as kaijin instead--An offshoot of kaiju. I'm not suggesting the H-Man is a kaiju, but both that word and kaijin were popularized around the same time for their respective genres. We wouldn't call Dracula a kaijin, would we?
"...think of it this way: the majority of Sushi Rolls are American. Japanese makizushi (a form of sushi) are what they are based on: rice and fish rolled up with seaweed. However, what America has done with it is A) put the rice and fish on the outside in many cases and B) added a ton of other ingredients as to where the original concept is supposed to be more simple and plain. And yet, we still call it Sushi."
As compelling of an argument as this is, it's also the same case that we're seeing now with kaiju. California rolls are what popularized sushi in America and that offshoot eventually, and incorrectly, adopted the name sushi. It's a case of just because it happened doesn't mean it's right or accurate.
Automobiles is a less convincing comparison since many different inventors from various countries were all making their variations around similar frames of time. (The argument continues for who made the first one, though Germany seems to be the most agreed upon.)
The thing that makes the word kaiju different is that it's not a word used as widely as "sushi" or universally as "automobile". It's in a niche--A Japanese niche. And it's a word that continues to lose meaning every year with fans that misuse or try to expand the definition with head-canon definitions. Clover and MUTO make excellent giant monsters with personalities, but the criteria stands. They're not Japanese monsters from a Japanese sub-genre of film. They're certainly inspired by those creatures and films, I'll give them that--But they're not kaiju.
OK, I need to weigh in here. We're splitting hairs. Although Kaiju originated as a purely Japanese creation, it honestly has grown beyond that. I'm with others in that I personally feel you can call whatever the hell giant creature you want a kaiju. I'm one of the biggest Godzilla 2014 detractors, and although I didn't love the Mutos and certainly didn't find them overly original, I did like the fact that the filmmakers tried to come up with a different antagonist, and for me, yes, they are still kaiju. As for originality, in Japanese cinema, we have Mothra (a giant moth), Kamakiras (Deadly Mantis anyone?), Kumonga/Speiga (Tarantula), Rodan (pteranodon), and Gorosaurus, which is what, a larger generic looking dinosaur. Honestly, if they all qualify as "kaiju", then again, feel free to quantify several non-Japanese giants as kaiju as well. There will be the so-called "purists" who disagree, but so be it.
"But no, I'm no fan of the MUTO. I find them entirely forgettable."
I think that was quite clear already XD Nothing wrong with that, of course.
Anyways, there's plenty of modern Japanese monsters that aren't kaiju. First off you got anything from the Pokemon, Digimon, Yokai-Watch, etc. None of those are kaiju, and no one refers to them as such even in Japanese culture. In terms of live action, you got Snake-women in a number of live action horror films and a number of humanoid creatures that appear in Latitude Zero that aren't kaiju. Then you got a huge amount of examples in anime; Totoro, the Titans from Attack on Titan, the Parasite from Parasyte, Guana from Knights of Sidonia, etc. etc. etc.
All of which are indeed Japanese monsters, but none of which are kaiju; or at the very least, referred to as such in culture.
There are other words for "monster" or "beast" in Japanese. This is why the specific word "kaiju" wasn't used much until Godzilla came along, and that's only because it was the shorter form of the more accurate "daikaiju." The base word was simply too generic. People are much more likely to say "bakemono" or "obake" or "yokai" or "oni" when talking about a monstrous creature even today, as those words are more specific.
When Godzilla came along, that's when "kaiju" finally started to have a little bit more clear meaning; being larger strange monsters with personalities and character other than "GRAR! *STOMP*"
And if you're concerned about how something like MUTO or Clover wasn't made in Japan, then think of it this way: the majority of Sushi Rolls are American. Japanese makizushi (a form of sushi) are what they are based on: rice and fish rolled up with seaweed. However, what America has done with it is A) put the rice and fish on the outside in many cases and B) added a ton of other ingredients as to where the original concept is supposed to be more simple and plain. And yet, we still call it Sushi.
The same can be said for pizza. Original Italian pizza is about as thin as paper and literally lacks any toppings outside of tomato sauce and cheese, but America still calls all our different versions pizza; all-meat, thick crust, deep dish and all.
Even automobiles/cars were made invented outside of America. And yet, America comes along, makes their own version, and still calls them automobiles or cars.
Why are Kaiju suddenly different? Why is calling the MUTOs or Clover American-made kaiju suddenly make the word lose its meaning? Or even calling Gorgo a british-made kaiju or Reptilicus a Danish-American kaiju?
It just seems silly to me that being Japanese in origin is the sole requirement that can't be overlooked whatsoever even though the creature may fit the bill in every other way.
The Legend of Brian ,
Well I don't think that's really the debate right now--But no, I'm no fan of the MUTO. I find them entirely forgettable.
"but as not every Japanese monster is a kaiju,"
Examples?
"not every non-Japanese monster can't be a kaiju, surely."
Why? They're not Japanese. Why are we using a Japanese word used to describe specific Japanese characters in a specific Japanese sub-genre for non-Japanese characters? It loses meaning.
"Heck, the term "kaiju" never even had a proper meaning until Godzilla came along in 1954 and modernly defined it; centuries before then, it was used as to describe anything strange looking; literally "strange beast"."
Exactly--"Godzilla came along in 1954 and modernly defined it," is dead on. As I explained above, there's a difference between kaiju the translation/transliteration and kaiju the Japanese word--Especially when tossed around in other languages. If kaiju only means "strange beast" and we need to use that for anything that fits the description, then why not just say "strange beasts"? Answer: Just because the word translates to "monster", and its transliteration is "strange beast" or "strange creature", doesn't mean everything that fits that bill (like a platypus, I suppose) qualifies as a kaiju within the context of the film genre. So unless we're going to dumb down "kaiju" to its literal meaning and make it completely useless in an English sentence: Gigan is a kaiju. Clover is not. Gamera is kaiju. MUTO are not. It's pretty cut and dry.
"And on the MUTOs overall design, their silhouette still stands out from all the other monsters mentioned here."
I think you're reaching, in all honesty. It just looks like a slightly more archnid-like Clover with a different head to me. If that's unique, then okie-dokie.
Ah the timeless argument on whether the MUTOs sucked or not. I think it should be broken down into three criteria:
1. How they were in the context of the film. Mediocre. Sure they have the EMP blast that goes into the whole "nature is punishing man" thing, but it really had no other use than that. Sure the EMP was meant to affect Godzilla's atomic breath, but that was cut out of the film so it doesn't count. As monsters, they were just there for Godzilla to kill.
2. In context as Godzilla monsters. Unique. Sure they wont ever compare to any of the Toho kaiju, but they are unique among the creatures Godzilla has faced. It can be said they aren't a rip-off of anything Toho has made for Godzilla as far as I'm aware of and that says something at least.
3. In context as American made monsters. This is where Gman has the point through and through. When you look at other monsters made here in America, you could swap the MUTO out for the Arachnid or Clover or whoever and you'd end up with generally the same thing. It's entirely bland and a show of lacking creativity for American studios.
Yes they're not Japanese, but as not every Japanese monster is a kaiju, not every non-Japanese monster can't be a kaiju, surely.
Heck, the term "kaiju" never even had a proper meaning until Godzilla came along in 1954 and modernly defined it; centuries before then, it was used as to describe anything strange looking; literally "strange beast". A man could walk outside, see a platypus or even a beetle he'd never seen before, and go "Ah! Kaiju!" and it would still be an accurate statement.
And on the MUTOs overall design, their silhouette still stands out from all the other monsters mentioned here. Heck, the Stranger Things monster from season 2 literally only looks like that because of the angle; seen from different angles, and it's more of this big tentacle-spider thing. Meanwhile, the MUTOs retain a more Gorilla-like posture with the front arms being larger than the back legs; not to mention Hokmuto again retaining the look of a stealth bomber.
The MUTOs are pretty unique. The multiple leg thing is the only thing they share with a lot of modern Hollywood monsters, and the gorilla-posture is something they only share with Clover and Kong 2005, but that's about where the similarities end.
Kaiju always show their own character; they're not just big beasties that stomp on things and roar.
And they're Japanese.
The other physical traits are easily overlooked, nothing exactly high creative output. When you step back and take the basic design and silhouette into account it's not a massive leap from Hollywoods favorite creature tropes.
Other American monsters have personalities as well. That doesn't make them kaiju either.
Still better than oversized insects/arachnids.
But again, even if the multiple legs thing is a common trait in Hollywood, how does that make the overall design uninspired? That's 1 aspect about their design: multiple legs.
And what about all the things they did differently with them? Never before did we have a kaiju that looked like a stealth bomber, made those absolutely weird noises, had sexual dimorphism, used echolocation, had bio-luminescent lights to correlate with their echolocation, or utilized EMPs for both attacking as well as for communication with one another.
There's plenty of other character traits other than their limb count that make the MUTOs unique in design. Not to mention, yes, their personality is important. Kaiju always show their own character; they're not just big beasties that stomp on things and roar.
"What is exactly wrong with Monster/Kaiju having multiple legs aside from being "Overdone"?"
Overdone = uninspired, boring. You answered your own question.
Regardless of whether or not the MUTO show personality, they're still not kaiju and clearly highly influenced by the Hollywood cogs of creature design.
Another new chapter. Godzilla fights the military. Guess how that turns out.
What made me a godzilla fan was how good the movies were I became in love with them and now their is a new Godzilla vs kong and I just can wait I'm a really big fan.and I know like everything about Godzilla.thats how big of a fan I am
But I still can't wait Godzilla vs king vs king dorha vs Rican and mother a and then the new kajuie
What is exactly wrong with Monster/Kaiju having multiple legs aside from being "Overdone"? There is nothing wrong with Monster/Kaiju having multiple legs as long they aren't oversized already existing insects/arachnids.
Ehhhh, but at the same time the MUTOs clearly have a separate biology from those creatures. Granted the Starship Trooper bugs served as a part of their inspiration, but just because they have multiple legs like the others doesn't make them generic.
Not to mention Hokmuto and Femuto have clear personalities in the movie too; you can see each of them thinking and showing emotion despite their lack of facial features. Passion, Curiosity, Rage (of course), Anguish, etc. You don't get that out of the majority of the others listed.
NateZilla10000,
I don't think they're designs are unique at all. I think the MUTO are just following a similar arachni-tile design Hollywood has been obsessing over for years--As such they're easily giant monsters.
^ I'm just going to consider them both, both because they are made in America and appeared in a Godzilla movie. So I'm considering them as both. Seems fair to me. Unless you could change my mind.
@The Bootleg Rebellious
Yeah, but then what makes Hokmuto and Femuto? Surely they're not just giant monsters, right? Their unique design, the way they interact with humans and each other, the way they think; not akin to just another big beastie.
That's... exactly what I said above.
^
Fair enough I guess. How about I just label a monster from Japan as a "Kaiju" and label a monster from America as a "Giant Monster", seems fair to me.
^But that's not accurate at all. If the monster is 100+ feet and from America, how is it a kaiju?
The only reason the monsters are called kaiju in the Pacific Rim franchise is because it was an agreed upon name for giant monster within the context of that fictional universe--And del Toro wanted them to serve as an homage to actual kaiju inspired from Godzilla, Ultraman, etc.
Otherwise it makes no sense to use a Japanese term for an American-based creature. It's like calling America chocolate chip cookies biscuits just because that's what Great Britain calls them.
100+ feet tall monsters/creatures is enough for me to refer it as a Kaiju. Anything below that is just a giant monster for me.
I kinda saw what makes a kaiju a kaiju similar to what makes an anime an anime.
Everybody's got a different definition; some more conservative (i.e., "it has to be from Japan to be considered anime!") and others more inclusive (i.e., "it uses an anime-ish art style and is heavily structured like a Japanese series, so I consider it an anime")
For me, what I define as kaiju goes by whether or not they fit 2 out of 3 qualifications:
1. The giant monster is from Japan (Golden Snitch rule; if it's big and from Japan, Kaiju.)
2. The monster has a personality and does not just roar and stomp on things.
3. The design is unique enough to separate it from the ol' "just a big ____" label.
In this way, I consider Kong 2017, Clover, and the Pacific Rim monsters kaiju (seeing how they fit #2 and #3), but at the same time, I don't consider 1933 or 2005 Kong a kaiju (because they only fit #2), nor do I consider Rhedosaurus a kaiju (because it only fits #3; and barely so at that. Kinda looks like a giant Tuatara to be honest).
That's just my way of looking at it, anyways. I'm sure other people got their own ways too.
riggzamortis86 pretty much nailed it. The word "kaiju" is thrown around far too loosely. People are calling Rampage a kaiju film and it's not. Just because the word translates to "monster" doesn't qualify it for everything. There's a difference between kaiju the translation/transliteration and kaiju the Japanese word.
It's sort of a form of cultural appropriation. When the word kaiju is used in an English speaking context it stands for Japanese monsters only. So when I use the words "giant monsters" I'm referring to the original Kong or the Rhedosaurus from The Beast from 20,000 Fathoms. When I mention "kaiju" or "daikaiju" those monsters are not included in the conversation. I'm talking about Godzilla, Rodan, Mothra, etc.
Otherwise there's no point in English speaking fans to use the word kaiju. It loses all context if we just lump every giant monster in with the same word.
^
Better be.
I still want to see this.
@riggzamortis86, that makes a lot of sense.
Can't wait for Mechagodzilla to join DCEU.
^To further prove my point, wouldn't the Iron Giant technically be a Kaiju? No one thinks of that one.
^Well.... yes and a huge reason for no. King Kong's history predates the word Kaiju. He is a giant movie monster, but really anything related to Japanese giant monsters are Kaiju. Starting with obviously Godzilla being the first kaiju. Kong is a Kaiju in the Godzilla and Toho Universe. But King Kong isn't universally known or classified as "Kaiju".
Kong is this interesting monster nomad that crosses over into other monster universes and can fit into whatever you need him to be. Whether he's just a giant monster, kaiju, or MUTO, he is first and foremost, just a giant monster, respectively. He's part of all these classifications but the world will first recognize him as a giant monster first and kaiju last.
What about King Kong? Doesn't he count as a Kaiju?
"So basically at comic con?"
I heard a lot of people saying that it is extremely likely. So I assume it to be true.
So basically at comic con?
^Thank you! that actually sounds like a reasonable answer. I realize you don't have an official answer(who does honestly?) but that was a very good educated guess.
I hope the trailers don't give us some phony alternative footage just like 2014 trailers and teasers. There was soo much in those trailers that was different than the actual film that it was like a whole different movie they where advertising!
No matter what the tease is, I cant wait to see it!
"When do you all think we will get an official trailer or teaser?"
My most educated guess is that the timeline for the Godzilla 2 marking campaign will be very similar to Kong Skull Island. With both movies coming out the same month. For example, the 1st trailer will come out during comic con in June, the 2nd trailer will come out in November, and the last will be released in February before the movie will finally be released.
When do you all think we will get an official trailer or teaser?
I can confirm that MechaGodzilla is in the film, as well as the Godzilla theme. That's about it. The design for MechaGodzilla though is original for this film and it is badass as hell. I'm hoping we get to see more of it in the future.
I actually like this look, its much more intimidating with a slender look
