New Replies (Page 578)
I think the highlight you mentioned was that we don't honestly want that art form we love to die, that's never the point, but the industry and the tools have caught on and raised the bar and we as people just like seeing things develop and the tools create new possibilities. My wife and I were talking about the article after I wrote it and she compared it to the claymation Raptors in the original Jurassic park that would have been versus the digital segments we got like the kitchen scene. In retrospect, yes, we can confidently say we're glad the tools developed gave us the version we have. That's not to say the claymation was BAD, Phil Tippet was a genius, but JP would not be the classic it is today I believe if they had made all the dinosaurs claymation in 1993. That's not a slam against claymation, it's the reality of what looked better for the story they wanted to tell.
The same for the Big G. We love the suits, but if the tools can tell the best possible story and draw in fans with the new tools, bring it on.
Adding a PS to this for those who read the article, I wanted to mention that part of the inspiration for this writing was out of reaction to individuals on this site who personify that elitist mindset and who irked me for trying to prove their points by putting words in other peoples' mouths.
I and another fan were discussing that ideal digital for the future is well done, purposeful and well realized CGI and that CGI done right is a good evolution of special effects, but the other party claimed we were saying that "CGI was superior" and twisted what we meant. This is a part of that "gatekeeping" nonsense I mentioned before.
I just encourage my fellow fans to not apologize for encouraging new methods of special effects, and to not allow yourself to be brow beaten by the gatekeepers. It's ok to like practical, it's ok to prefer digital, and don't let them put you in an imaginary box. Enjoy the fandom and don't succumb to the snobbery, because if it's not fun then it's not worthwhile. And sometimes you have to just let the old guard pretend that they know what's best. Just don't let them ruin the thing you treasure.
One cannot deny that there is a bit of elitism with regards to addressing the differences in technique. It could just be the blunt and contextually-lacking nature of plain text on the internet, but this post is founded on some real anecdotes.
It's not like any of us want the craft of tokusatsu to die out or anything. Far from it, we'd rather there be a variety of ways in which to craft the characters and stories we love to enjoy. But there needs to be an appropriate community attitude that supports this notion.
Even you, original Gman, have sometimes come across this way when addressing the difference between CGI and suitmation. I'm sure you never meant it, but the way you worded things sometimes came with the kinds of connotations this thread was made in response, at least in interpretation.
Basically, we're all allowed to think about things one way or another, but we need to work on ensuring that it's done in a way that doesn't step on people's toes.
I don't think there's anything particularly wrong with using CG effects and what not to bring Godzilla to life. I'm not quite in, say, Jeff Zornow's court from G-Fest a few years ago regarding his rather passionate negative tirade on Pacific Rim.
I do however want to stress the difference between "outdated" and "different". I believe it was Kiyotaka Tiguchi who said, "Why can't a miniature building, just look like a miniature building?" Accepting that the style of tokusatsu was not realistic and that they were sufficient realizations unto themselves for the specific style they were going for.
For example, Kill Bill, 300, Dick Tracey, etc, don't look realistic at all--But that's the point. Likewise, Godzilla, Gamera, tokusatsu, etc, became their own entity existing as a stylistic art piece. Many of the crew at Tsuburaya Productions consider themselves artists over anything. (Which could also help explain why their legal staff was so easily steamrolled the last couple of decades, but that's another topic entirely.)
Was it conducive for growing a mainstream audience? No, but I don't think that really matters. Many self-proclaimed indie artists aren't exactly making movies for a massive turnout either.
Crew members at Tsuburaya and Toei take a lot of pride in the current shows/movies they work on don't consider it outdated at all. They cite the original Godzilla as being the father to the style they're dedicated to and rightfully so--Tsuburaya is the father of Japanese special effects and Godzilla is the King of tokusatsu.
In America Godzilla's more of a pauper to things we've seen before--Cameron and Spielberg. Jurassic Park and Terminator 2. Which is expected considering the goal and audience in the west, but no less true. (I have mixed feelings on where Shin Godzilla falls in that category only because of the overwhelming amount of miniature work that most aren't aware of.)
I'm glad the genre is getting a little more exposure from it - Pacific Rim in particular has become one of my all time favorite films - But it does sort of resonate with something Matt Frank said to me awhile back, "Western audiences don't care if the movie looks realistic, they care if it looks expensive."
Indeed. Different? Sure. Remember "state of the art" depends on the advances in specific techniques, not what the technique itself is. Knowing that, certain techniques used in Ultraman Geed last year are actually no less "state of the art".
The series actually felt like a Godzilla series and Godzilla, largely, acted like Godzilla. The weird similarities to the Hanna-Barbera cartoon were kind of interesting--It sort of improved on a lot of those ideas.
It hasn't aged particularly well, but it's still fairly entertaining. The three part Monster Wars arc was a definite highlight. Great music too. Shame it ended without much closure.
You took the words out of my mouth. This is exactly how i see Godzilla: Final Wars. A love song to the series and a final chapter. This movie concludes an era, and rightfully so since this was the last movie were costumes were fully used, the last time we would see Toho's water pond, getting the star on the Walk of Fame in Hollywood etc.
The movie for me is more than just a terrorist invasion, or Kaiju fighting. Final Wars for me is about Hope, hope for the future.
Some people argue what was Minilla's part in the movie. some people think Minilla was unnecessary. That the movie didn't need him. But for me, he not only represents the greater love that Godzilla has for him, but also represents hope.
If a sequel was to be made, in a more decent world, Minilla grows up to be a benevolent Godzilla, friend with Humanity. Probably recipient of the energy of the father, similarly to Godzilla vs Destoroyah. Minilla would not only defend earth like his father did, but also humanity.
Grew up with both, and while I agree that the series is superior and a better example of what Zilla should have been, I still have some nostalgic love for '98, and honestly find it pretty entertaining to this day. I shared notes with other fans of where we ranked all the films from least to most favorite, and I realized that honestly I still like 1998 better than about 5 of the original Toho fims in terms of sheer entertainment factor and the creature just looking cool
The series though did a good job of paying respects to the old while continuing the 98 story, and deserves a place of value in the fandom overall.
I've watched a few episodes on Youtube and it seems alright for a kid's show.
I'm thinking it's Mothra. When I looked closer at the image, I could see the faint outline of wings. The body is too small to be Godzilla's or Rodan's, and Mothra is the only one with a small body height, only standing at 15 meters tall. Mothra also has a history of being set on fire, mainly in the millennium series.
50s: Gojira (1954). Arguably the best. Great start and excellent film.
60s: Invasion of Astro Monster (1965). Fun movie with great monster action and great human story.
70s: Godzilla vs Hedorah (1971). This one is hard for me. I am torn between this and Terror of Mechagodzilla. But the strangeness of this film gets me every time. I also love the theme.
80s: Godzilla vs Biollante (1989). I wish this were made 1 year later so I could say it is my favorite of the 90s because I also like Return.
90s: Godzilla vs King Ghidorah (1991). The 90s is my least favorite decade for Godzilla films. At least this one tries something and isn't just a Michael Bay explosion fest.
00s: GMK (2001). Solid godzilla film. The eyes are great.
10s: Shin Godzilla (2016). This is the only film that I sometimes think is better than the original. It is great all around. Good monster stuff. Interesting human story.
1. Gojira (1954)
2. Mothra Vs. Godzilla (1964)
3. Godzilla vs. Mechagodzilla (1974)
4. The Return of Godzilla (1984)
5. Godzilla Vs. SpaceGodzilla (1994)
6. Godzilla Vs. Megaguirus (2000)
7. Shin Gojira (2016)
I can appreciate standing firm on things you believe matter that are worth fighting for, but when it comes to entertainment mediums it annoys me because this segment of the fandom treats kaiju like a religious experience rather than a realm of fictional characters and storytelling which inevitably and rightfully use the tools of their time to draw in their audience and continue to tell more stories. I feel a lot of that elitist mentality comes from a fear that their favorite thing won't be "special" anymore, that by making it new with modern methods and inviting in others to enjoy it who wouldn't have before that they lose specialness by having to share it with "noobs", but it's either that or watch the thing you love stay in the shadow of media that adapts well to the methods.
Personally I find Shin Godzilla to be boring, but it's an excellent example of how modern effects were well crafted to make the old story breathe some new life again, and I'm still hard pressed to find any Toho Godzilla fan who doesn't consider it "real" and worthy of the title other than some inexplicably stupid remarks I've read here on the Disqus comments ;)
Agreed, it was just bothering me to hear this rather one-way street line of thought coming from fans who I'm sure think of themselves as "truer" fans than those who embrace the new methods. I have to stress there's nothing wrong with preferring the old school films or saying they're superior, it's just the inability to acknowledge the good qualities and inevitability of special effects, it's empty thinking to write off anything that uses different tools to create the same overall positive experience in entertainment and storytelling if it does it well, and so far on the monster side of things the Monsterverse is two for two (soon very likely to be three) in giving us GOOD kaiju action with modern means. I just want to see some of that old school kaiju stubbornness chill the frick out and not brow beat the means or the fans that like them.
Anyway thank you guys for giving this ridiculous article a look :P
I always say to enjoy something for yourself before you consider what others think. You'll find it's much easier to deal with fictional entertainment that way.
Snide comments and remarks are unavoidable so long as one person thinks one thing and another thinks something else, but we can work together to minimize their voices and bring some real excitement and positivity.
I think that's apt, yeah. It also helps that it's in its own standalone universe where Goji was immune to the oxygen destroyer and we have the power and awe of Goji fighting other incredible beings front and center. There's no issue with Keizer Goji being all these things because this little pocket movie already exists in a perfect world, so to speak, where forgiveness is universal (vis a vis any other Godzilla movie). I think of it as like a love song to this endless battle they've subjected Goji to. It's certainly not always the most engaging of the films to rewatch, but it functions perfectly, I think, as a conclusion to the Goji legacy preceding it.
I don't get the sort of zero-sum mentality of the fringe corner of G fandom. Accepting CGI now does not mean the old suitmation is automatically bad or chessy. It's not an either-or proposition. You can like BOTH.
It's like those debates that Trekkies have about which version of starship Enterprise they like the most. Some hardcore fans think only the original NCC-1701 is the "real" Enterprise and the rest, whether it's Next Generation or the reboot films, is not acceptable.
My personal thinking is live and let live. One should not divide Godzilla universe into absolute dichotomies between "superior" suitmation or CGI. It's the monster design and the quality of the overall movie that counts, not the method of how Godzilla is portrayed. If you like suitmation, fine. If you like CGI, fine. Just don't try to insist and demand your favorite form of Godzilla is the only one true Godzilla.
Life is too short to be so dogmatic and rigid.
OK... picture this... all 4 posters done in 3-D lenticular style... and available for purchase on Amazon... now.. besides me... who else would buy them ?
This is a purely subjective choice, not saying my selection is better than others, just my pick:
1. Gojira (1954), don't think there is another real choice for the 50's. Godzilla Raids Again was charming, but it can't compare to the sheer power of the original.
2. King Kong vs Godzilla (1962), strange choice perhaps, since the 60's offer the introduction of the other classic kaijus, but it's my nostalgic favorite.
3. Godzilla vs Mechagodzilla (1974), we get to see Mecha for the first time, 'nuff said.
4. Godzilla vs Biollante (1989): The movie is uneven, but the design of Biollante is kinda neat, almost like Toho's take on the Little Shop of Horrors.
5. Godzilla vs Destroyah (1995): We get to see the burnt form Godzilla, and his "death" was unexpectedly touching. Good stuff.
3. GMK (2001): Good movie, I like how it recaptured the terror and horrific nature of Godzilla.
I'll only remark on a couple of them because honestly it's an objectively good list for newcomers even if some of the most "popular" films in the series aren't my personal favorites, but I would only say that Ghidorah The Three Headed Monster is a good one to select for the 60s because of the KOTM 2019 factor, being able to point to it and say "Look, here's a major inspirational source for the new movie coming out to compare to!", aside from the fact that it's a really strong movie anyway with a famous Bond girl.
The only other I would remark on is the 80s, honestly by modern standards and especially for non-fans 1985 can be pretty dull and would say Biollante is the stronger choice, it's more inherently entertaining, has better pacing and a more out there plot that does a good job of balancing the kaiju fighting with the humans vs. Godzilla element present in a lot of the modern films, that might jive better for a night with friends, but obviously that's just personal thoughts and you'll condense it down to what you feel is best.
I started a similar topic not long ago: http://www.godzilla-movies.com/topic/48132
Like several other masterful movies, Godzilla: Final Wars doesn't spoon-feed the viewers. As time passed by, new details about the movie come up. There are way too many subtle details that are not typically recognized at first. Eg, Godzilla "talk" with Anguirus, Reverse pollen attack by Mothra, her returning to Monster Island, Manda in Norway oceans probably homage to the great serpent in Viking folklore, etc
Godzilla: Final Wars is like a closing chapter of the Godzilla Saga (Kind of quoting the movie), as such Final Goji ends up turning into a version of Godzilla that possesses unlimited power (Keizer Godzilla), in this way cementing that this is it, the last form of Godzilla regardless of other version that would come up (Graphic novels, Godzilla Earth etc), and what will come in the future, this Keizer Godzilla is, and will be King.
If we go by weight and size, the monsters in Godzilla: Final Wars are very much probably stronger than their past counterparts.
There are too many forums and topics detailing the feats of Final Goji, that it would be quite tiresome to state them again.
My original question had to do with trying to find a number to scale how powerful Keizer Godzilla is, instead of the "unlimited power" route.
By the way, I guess it was an oversight, but the wikizilla page for FinalGoji the character wasn't corrected along with the movie's synopsis.
Final Wars complete works is set to arrive in January so I guess I'll necro the thread to post my findings :)
Cecegames02: Make sense, are you saying the old Toho series don't make sense?
Either way, without any new updates on contract negotiations or advertising, it's highly unlikely any new Toho monsters will be appearing.
The 4 big stars is already pushing the bracket as is.
Anytime I mention MUTO in conversation with casual movie goers, even when the topic is the film, I am paid a blank stare. Almost beating Godzilla and having its head strung up in the sequel is nice and all, but hardly a form of iconic status.
Even in the fandom the MUTO are bottom rung monsters. They'll probably be remembered as well as Orga and Megaguirus--Though I feel that's optimistic.
I remember them, and I'm sure plenty of other general audiences do. The filmmakers remember them enough to include flashback scenes and the female's head, too.
Plus, these are the monsters that nearly killed Godzilla together, and they showed some great onscreen chemistry through their bond. Can't say that about a lot of Toho's monsters.
Besides that, the franchise can't always piggyback off of adapted old favourites. Gotta infuse some new blood, get some real creative juices flowing. Combining that with the adapted favourites is honestly the best course; keeps things fresh whilst also pandering to nostalgia.
"Toho's canon fodder kaiju"
Because there's no scenario where Legendary's original monsters would be forgettable canon fodder. 
Xenotaris the reason those would be good films is because, unlike the original Godzilla films by Toho, the Legendary films would have a plot that makes sense to a newer generation.
I think it might be an original kaiju, because that would be cool if the monsterverse adds more kaiju to the roster rather reusing Toho's canon fodder kaiju
I just love how these hypothetical films tend to be rip-offs of previous made movies without going in a new direction for these kaiju. Come up with some new like original kaiju and original alien species, stop re-using the 'same old, same old' material from previous godzilla movies.
Words escape me.
Beautiful. As soon as they become available on T shirts... they will be flying off the hangers so to speak and I want to get all of them.
Pure gold!!!
Anything is possible for the future monsterverse. But we'll have to see just how much staying power it has. Unlike the long track record of the Marvel Universe or the critic-proof Transformer series, we don't know at this point just how durable the monsterverse is.
So we'll just have to take it one movie at a time and not get ahead of ourselves. Sure, I would love to see a stand-alone Mothra and Rodan movie or another Destroy All Monsters (which KoTM kinda is actually).
But the key is that they need to focus on making a good movie for each entry in the series and not get too distracted with trying to build an interconnected universe. In other words, they need put the priority on telling good stories first and not focus on trying to build a larger universe. That comes later. Otherwise I fear the Monsterverse will become another "Dark Universe", the supposed-franchise from Universal that crashed and burned before it even started. Universal was so focused on building a universe of their own with the Mummy, they forgot to they tell a good story in the first place.
Cecegames02: I don't mind seeing Ebirah again, if done right. The thing is though, Ebirah is essential one big lobster, and lobsters live in water, not the ground. So it wouldn't make much sense for a lobster to emerge from the ground rather than water.
I don't know about you guys, but I definitely think the claws are Ebirah. Guessing you guys know what Ebirah looks like, so I'll show the evidence.
Here's a shot of the claws from the trailer.
Now, here's a shot of a scrapped Kaiju from Godzilla 2014
Now, take a look at a picture of Ebirah.
I don't know about you people, but I feel kinda bad for our lobster friend. Looks to me like he's been thrown around but never put in a movie. =( #LobsterLivesMatter
as for the giant dude coming out of the ground, I think it's Anguirus. With the most popular and most known Kaiju, Anguirus is kind of the "Earth" or "Green" Element, with Godzilla being "Water" or "Blue", Ghidorah being "Lightning" or "Yellow" Mothra being "Holy/light" or "White" and Rodan being "Fire" or "Red/orange"
Plus, you can see spikes on its back, so there's also that.
Also, if you look closely at the bottom left side of the big hump coming out of the ground, you can see the faint shape of Anguirus' head and horns.
Over time I am starting to like the 2014/2015 game more, but we all know that there is way more potential with a kaiju game than the game gave us.
Also, I'm interested to see your post on a game.
Thanks, I thought it would be the closest the Monsterverse could get to including Zilla. It would just be a need reference :)
Thank you so much. If the monsterverse ever has some sort of Destroy all monsters movie, I am hoping that it will be a war between earth kaiju and cyborg kaiju (off course Gigan would be part of this). Along with Gigan could be Mechagodzilla, Mecha-King Ghidorah and some new cyborg kaiju (Mecha-Mothra or Mecha-Skullcrawler?)
Well, it has never been confirmed that the monsterverse is going to end, but yeah hope it continues as well.
also, I feel my King Caesar's story would work better in the new Toho cinematic universe than in the Monsterverse. Fortunately, this topic could fit with the TCU as well :)
I like the little refrence you put to Godzilla '98, and it's funny you did, because I just watched Godzilla 1998 recently, and heard one of the scientists mistake Godzilla for an overgrown Allosaurus.
Small world, huh?
KaijuWorld you are a genius. I said to a friend of mine that the MUTO (Specifically the Male) Looks like Gigan but he said "No Way." However, I do like the idea of the aliens (Probably the Xiliens) taking the MUTOs corpse and reviving him (almost like with King Ghidorah in the heisei era where he is turned into Mecha-King Ghidorah)
