New Replies (Page 577)
KoldWarKid62,
The entire paragraph of that portion reads:
"The Titans, we learn, are awoken from their slumber because the planet is on a collision course with self-destruction.
'It wouldn't be a true Godzilla film, if you didn't touch upon those things,' says Dougherty. 'Otherwise you're just making a big dumb giant monster movie. There has to be a sprinkle of it, otherwise you're not being faithful to the original intent of the series. Anyone who thinks otherwise is not a true Godzilla fan.'"
The next paragraph goes in to Adam Wingard visiting the set.
I probably tend to agree with the sentiments presented by YukisSpecial. I do, however, still love and appreciate, as he does also, the age old art of tokusatsu. In fact, my two favorite G movies are early Showa films and nothing has come close; not 2014, nor Shin. I don't have the energy right now to get into a whole discussion, but I do think it's the end product that's important and not necessarily how that end is gotten to. If Toho wants to keep producing G movies "old school", I will continue to tune in, but I'm not averse to them or anyone else utilizing a different approach, as long as the movies are engaging.
@G. H. (Gman), the snippet from Dougherty is interesting, and although I would never call out anyone for not being a true Godzilla fan, it seems a bit out of context. Do you have a link to the whole article, as pulling a paragraph or quote from anyone's conversation never truly tells the whole story. I'm sure there's more there fans would like to read/know. Thank you!
But Anguirus is arguably more popular over here in 'Murica, and it is an american film, directed by an American Godzilla fan. 'Sides that, that roar ain't Baragon.
The first was one pretty interesting. I enjoyed the world-building, it kind of felt like a Jules Verne novel at parts.
The second one however was really just exposition and people having philosophical debates for two hours before a repeat of the prior film's climax. I thought the concept of Mechagodzilla being made of living metal to be interesting but beyond that, it was kind of a disappointment.
I'm hoping the third film will redeem the trilogy though.
Its probably just an OC Kaiju. I think there will be a montage of Kaiju emerging at the end of the movie to leave the audience with an impression of a greater threat to come.
However, if it is a Toho monster, it is more likely Baragon. Baragon also has a horn on his nose, and is well-known for burrowing under the Earth. Baragon is also far more popular than Anguirus in Japan so it could be a little Easter egg for fans over there.
I really want the monster to be anguirus but I just don’t see it happening
While I can understand where most fans were coming from with complaints, I personally thought it was okay. Not the best for what it was going for, but the conceptual ideas and visuals kept me interested.
It's a decent first step into new territory for the franchise. A bit of a misstep, but better to have tried and failed than to have never tried at all.
If given more time to further develop these kinds of ideas in the next attempt, I'm sure it'd go much smoother.
Happy to see someone expand on my previous ideas :). Even though some of these concepts are a bit out there, some of these concepts are pretty neat.
I might do a remake of the speculation I made a long time ago because I have realized now that this less of a Monsterverse and more the Godzillaverse + Kong. The Monsterverse should really have a more diverse cast.
Naw, they make sense, but the plotlines of the Toho films and the plotlines of the american films have large cultural differences, And the plotlines of american films would appear to an american audience, rather than a japanese one.
Almost definitely Anguirus on mystery Titan #2, give it a listen on a good pair of headphones or earbuds, and the roar sounds mighty familiar: like a low pitched version of Anguirus' famous cry. Happiness is Anguirus finally getting more screen-time!
MinecraftDinoKaiju,
I do vaguely recall that.
We have done a similar topic on this before. In fact, I remember that after I told you I didn't know many of the films from the 50's to the 80's, you specifically told me to catch up. And I remember saying this:
90's: Godzilla vs. Destroyah
2000's: It's between GMK and Final Wars.
2010s: It's between Godzilla (2014), Shin Godzilla, or Godzilla: King of the Monsters (2019).
Well, not only will I now update it by saying I saw the 1954 Gojira on Nov. 4 this year, but I will also now say that so far, King of the Monsters (2019) looks more promising than ever. You're welcome.
Edit: Yes, I'm back, but I won't be here as often as I used to (or maybe I will, idk).
Brian,
And on the topic of your 1960s dilemma, it's a hard draw. I typically consider the "Showa trilogy" of 1964 and '65 to be among the best of the series.
I think the safe answer is Mothra vs. Godzilla, but the answer that more accurately represents the period is probably Ghidorah: The Three Headed Monster. Monster Zero is probably the least safest, especially out of context--That movie is just bonkers and I love it for being bonkers.
Brian,
Have we done this before? Either on here or by way of twitter? Either way, great topic. I need to go back and see if this still matches up:
50s: Godzilla
60s: Monster Zero
70s: Terror of MechaGodzilla
80s: This fluctuates depending on my mood, but for now The Return of Godzilla.
90s: Fluctuates again. Godzilla vs. King Ghidorah on a good day, but Godzilla 2000 if I'm sick of Kawakita.
00s: Godzilla, Mothra, King Ghidorah: Giant Monsters All-Out Attack
10s: Shin Godzilla
I think that by limiting possible explanations of the falling object to titans we already know to be in the film, we'll never figure it out. It's really too high to be anything being dropped (unless it's a really stupid scene) and there's Ghidorah storm clouds in the air, so it's probably not Ghidorah's origin. Any idea's besides one of the main 4 titans?
Personally I'd go with (as an introductory run through):
50s Gojira
60s Ghidorah the 3 Headed Monster
70s Gigan (maybe Smog Monster, if you're looking for unique)
80s Biollante (a good entry point to Godzilla's wierdness factor)
90s Gozilla vs. Mechagodzilla (hands down)
00s Godzilla against Mechagodzilla (Tokyo SOS is better, but you have to see the first Kiryu or it doesnt make sense)
10s Godzilla '14 (though I hope to be able to say KOTM by next year)
I didn't even know this existed, but it still looks interesting. Nice.
Its probably going to be in a scene of Ghidorahs origins
So awesome
I think it will be Kumonga and Angurius.
This is definitely a 10 the story is so organized and awesome Great Job Tomuyuki Tanka would be proud. Godzilla would be glad someone told his story so well.
THIS IS DOPE AS HELL
Man, can't wait to see the others!
Godzilla especially will look pretty good with those new dorsal plates :D
Frank's painting looks great as always.
Awesome. Love NECA!
Anyone in any capacity is capable of pretending their position is far above what it really is, sir, whether in politics or following a fictional fandom. I left this site a while back out of annoyance because genuine, spiteful elitism condescendingly informed me that people I respected and admired within the fandom who have done a great deal of good in the lives of thousands of fans were, basically, "fake", and unworthy of their prestige. It was repulsive to me to see that here, but it's true in person with that same mindset of the fanbase, and it tends to go hand in hand with the opinions spoken of at length here.
I'm not here to start fights, quite the opposite, I'm trying to encourage a better mindset, one that tries to forget the temptation of snobbery and remember that this is a fictional genre we love and that there should be no place for that sentiment, but the fact is it does exist and it adds an unpleasant element to something that doesn't need it, but that thankfully will continue on in spite of it. Just my two cents, and I appreciate everyone who has joined in.
YukisSpecial: There will always be a-holes everywhere, even in the G fandom, hiding behind "old guard" or "elitist" tags. Just ignore them or if not, tell them point blank they are wrong and if they don't like it, too bad, deal with it.
Godzillatheking123,
Gloss and titles are the smoke and mirrors of conversation my friend. But mostly titles. ;)
I think it's important to remember that difference in opinion is what makes a fandom so engaging. I would not go as far to say some act as "elitists", but rather are just as passionate about their views as you are yours.
I'm a huge advocate of differing opinions because that's where the best conversations are birthed. I would hope no one takes offense to other articulating an opposing viewpoint.
With Godzilla now inspiring new generations of G fans, some of which may be new to the franchise and not a veteran like many of us, we need to expect that there will be polarized opinions regarding the execution of these films. CGI, practical effects, etc... Expect that.
As with any large group of people with unique viewpoints, I encourage discussion and debate, but try not to take opposing views personally. Share your points, engage with one another and take your debates to new depths. That's the whole point of this forum. No one should feel like they're not "part of a camp" or disregarded as not a true fan for their opinion.
G. H. (Gman): "I think the problem with elitism is it comes in a few forms and sometimes it's just misconstrued by the overtly sensitive--Which an individual here seems to suffer from."
Now who are might that be. Come on, be specific. ;)
If I may bounce off of your point, sir, for me that manifests at both conventions and online talking to other fans who take one of three approaches in this conversation and have laid all on me personally when just talking about the varying technical elements of the films; 1 is that they accuse you of being an illegitimate fan if you accept modern methods, we've heard and seen enough of that. 2 is actual pity, as if you're somehow a sell out because you find something to appreciate in the digital approach because it's giving into Hollywood and big money. 3 is just simply misunderstanding your stance and making judgments and assumptions like we've seen a lot of even on this site, not really comprehending that you can appreciate both. The biggest mistake I keep seeing in this discussion is falling back on the statement that it's some of us "advocating for the superiority of digital", when that's not the issue at all, but the landscape is changing and since it is we hope it will do its utmost best to tell good stories and represent the characters we love accurately. If the height of technology was hand puppets it would still be the same, make the best damn hand puppets you can and tell the best story, but if something can create a worthy alternative then by all means, let's explore it and not be puppet elitists demeaning the other fans :P
Of course, the discussion really isn't about that part of the debate, Ben.
It's more about how people are interacting with one another through these analyses and perspectives. It's clear that enough people feel that an elitist attitude has propagated to a noticeable degree with regards to addressing the topic.
While laying such criticisms is fine, it should be done with respect to the people who hold opposing critical perspectives. No method is inherently superior, as they're all just means to an end of entertaining the viewer; however, there's a perception that some people believe different, that there is a "superior" one that must be held above the "inferior" one, with the latter being "put down for being inferior".
Whether or not this perception is objectively accurate isn't really as relevant as the fact that some of us seem to see it when we're just trying to honestly talk about our favourite things about the franchise and its direction.
Well I can truthfully say I absolutely agree with everything you just said. While I found the CGI in G'14 quite good the rest of the film didn't really live up to it for me, so the whole thing suffers and no amount of good CGI can fix that. The point here, again, since I feel like I have to clarify this over and over, wasn't to tout CGI as superior, and that's not the point, but it's the thing that gets thrown back in our faces when any of us say we like seeing the way the technology has grown and celebrate when it's used well. The elitism annoyance is just that hard core section of the fanbase which loudly decries the use of any tools other than the traditional and makes us out to be anything less than "good", sincere or well informed fans if we don't fall in line with that thinking. All in all, yeah, I prefer practical, but I feel one genre that well honed CGI can elevate very well is the kaiju genre, and I'm glad it's reached the point it has at this place in time to show us this particular vision with the Monsterverse. It deserves as much respect for the craft as the suits.
TheGMan123,
I think the problem with elitism is it comes in a few forms and sometimes it's just misconstrued by the overtly sensitive--Which an individual here seems to suffer from. For example, recently, Michael Dougherty said something in the new Total Film article that has rubbed a few fans the wrong way:
"It wouldn't be a true Godzilla film if you didn't touch upon those things. Otherwise you're just making a big dumb giant monster movie ... you're not being faithful to the original intent of the series. Anyone who thinks otherwise is not a true Godzilla fan."
Yup. The guy everyone has been worshiping for the last half year just pulled the, "you're not a true fan" card. But here's the deal, I don't think he was targeting anyone specifically when he said that. The fact is when protecting a franchise you love/drawing more attention to its lesser known, positive attributes, it's sometimes impossible not to ruffle some feathers. I appreciate his passion and the balls he had to say it like he thought.
I don't really greenlight the, "you're not a true fan" line--But that's getting feathers ruffled over the less important thing he said.
In terms of CG vs. tokusatsu, I think it's important to understand the roots of both and why that effects the franchise. There are some perceptions being missed in light of the very whittled down, "good thing CG is here to save the day," mentality. (Which, in itself, is also elitist.)
Whether that ruffles some feathers or not is entirely up to those taking part in the conversation.
Since we're all stating our opinions, I for one have to say overused CGI does not make the storytelling better. You don't hear people complain about Shin Godzilla because the CGI for that movie looked practical. To me, that's good CGI when done correctly.
Yes, the methods are going to change over time. However, when CGI is mixed over CGI and the movie has a lot of dark scenes to hide how poor the CGI is some shots or when they have to add rain effects to it to cover it up, that's not entirely good CGI. I don't mind CGI as long as it's done correctly or is an assisting tool the way it was used for Gamera 3. The problem with today's standards in CGI is that it's not as "Groundbreaking" as it was during Jurassic Park or whatever film have you that had good CGI. I'm always going to prefer practical effects over CGI, but have nothing against CGI if that makes sense.
Entertainment though while we are on that topic, is found more in the film than just exciting special effects. Entertainment can be found in great story telling through a solid well written script that keeps the viewer engaged and can also be found in interesting characters who don't end up as cardboard characters that people can't really engage in. When characters can't be written well from the story telling and badly written by the story teller, it's gonna hurt in the long run.
The 98 movie can be entertaining on it's own, the main issue is, as always, the "Godzilla" title to it. It did not look or acted remotely like Godzilla should, hence the hate heaped on it.
YukisSpecial: I'm sorry if I offend anyone, but I don't have time to tolerate any "elitism" over Godzilla. G fandom should be open to all, young and old, rich and poor, of different ethnicities and religions, and that means it should be a big tent that caters to varied interest and taste. If those "old guard" don't like it, too bad, they can take their "suitmation-is-the-only-real-Godzilla" nonsense and shove it up their...you know.
It's interesting how not one of those "old guard" seem to realize that the Japanese themselves don't have such an issue over the suitmation over CGI "debate". Haruo Nakajima himself never said "only-suitmation-works-for-Godzilla". For the Japanese, suitmation was a pragmatic means to address the limitations of budget, time and special effects technology of the time. After all, as I am sure you all know, Eiji Tsuburaya had wanted to use stop-motion as the preferred means to show Gojira, but can't due to time and money constraints, so suitmation wasn't even their first or ideal choice!
Sure, over time, they develop a degree of admiration and reverence for suitmation in Japan, but they never saw it as the "only" style that Godzilla must be portrayed in. Heck, even with Ultraman, they now liberally use CGI, and I don't see any massive uproar or boycott of Ultraman in Japan because of it.
