Monsterverse scribe Max Borenstein wants a Godzilla vs. Kong sequel without any Humans!

MonsterVerse writer 1: "Man, writing compelling humans is HARD!"

MonsterVerse writer 2: "I know, right?! It's impossible!"

MonsterVerse writer 1: "What if...we got rid of the humans entirely?"

MonsterVerse writer 2: "Of COURSE! You can't be criticized for writing one-dimensional humans if you don't *have* any humans!"

That's more or less how I imagine this all played out.

We’ll, now they need to worry about one deme sip all monsters

*one demensional 

autocorrect

great idea a movie entirely about the war between the Gojira and kong war

Duratok pretty much nailed it. Headline should probably read: "Saboteur, masquerading as a bad Hollywood writer, says the genre where monsters are a mirror for humanity dealing with socio-economic, environmental and traumatic topics should ditch the humanity and just be an empty mirror."

Hopefully Legendary won't follow the wishes of a guy who made a television series flop from a Spielberg movie.

G. H. (Gman)

"Saboteur, masquerading as a bad Hollywood writer, says the genre where monsters are a mirror for humanity dealing with socio-economic, environmental and traumatic topics should ditch the humanity and just be an empty mirror."

Thats perfect.

G. H. (Gman)

That's pretty immature. The guy suggested an idea that he thought could be interesting (honestly, a movie shown through Kong's point of view could be an interesting concept). There's absolutely no need to throw juvenile insults at the guy and attacking him for some of the things he worked on. I get that you don't like the MonsterVerse, but that type of arrogant, immature, attitude is kind of uncalled for. All it does is make the fandom look bad.   

SasquaDash,
Bill me.

G. H. (Gman)

Look, I don't know what your problem is, but you're condescending attitude towards anyone with a different opinion from yours is getting really obnoxious. I came here because I wanted discuss a franchise that I love with fellow fans, but this gatekeeping attitude is honestly making this whole experience unpleasant.   

SasquaDash,
Gatekeeping, eh?

Question: Is Duratok, and HinikunaGoji going to get the same bill for making fun of Borenstein or is it reserved only for people who, "don't like the MonsterVerse?"

Likewise, I'm sick of your convenient targeting. You're the one who engaged with me on these topics each and every time--So for the third time, but undoubtedly not the last, if you wish to discuss this in depth my PMs are open.

G. H. (Gman)

Duratok, and HinikunaGoji don't have a history of being condescending towards anyone who has a different opinion from them. 

Calling someone out on rude behavior is not "convenient targeting". The fact that you insulted a guy's entire career because he suggested an idea for a movie you didn't agree with was really juvenile and uncalled for and your sarcastic "Bill me" response was even more so. I find it ironic that you praise things like Singular Point for being "experimental" and "doing new things with the franchise", but when the American movies try to bring up an experimental idea you immediately bash it and use it as an excuse to insult the filmmakers. At this point, I personally don't care if you hate the MonsterVerse (that's your own opinion). My problem is that you take any opportunity to insult others who think differently than you and you use it as a way of trying to act superior. I'm not actively trying to start conflicts, but at the same time, I'm not going to sit around and pretend that "everything's fine" and that treating others poorly is okay. Having a different opinion doesn't give you the right to treat others like crap. You've claimed in the past that this is just "how online communities act", but it shouldn't be. We should be able to discuss our thoughts on something maturely, rather than acting like immature jerks who treat others like garbage for having different thoughts. This type of behavior shouldn't be normalized. Most fandoms get a bad reputation from people within them acting this way, and the last thing I want is for the Godzilla and Kaiju fandom (and it's public image) to be damaged by arrogant behavior from certain fans. If you really want to turn these forums into a toxic dumpster fire, fine, but all it's doing is harming the fandom's image.  

Also, here's a definition of gatekeeping:

Well that is a stupid idea. Just admit you don’t know how to write compelling human characters. Monsters are cool and you can never go wrong with focusing on them more, but without humans to drive the plot and add intriguing story elements, you might as well be a nature documentary. 

My main problem is how lazy this seems to me. KOTM tried having an interesting human story, which got way too dependent on the kanji story and suffered in execution, and GvK didn't even try and used fast pacing to keep the story from bogging down. Giving up after two tries seems weird to me.

I think whether you enjoyed the Monsterverse films to far or not, many of us can agree, movies like this do NEED human characters. As GMan made point of above, Godzilla and Kong both mirror Human specific / societal issues. Beyond the spectacle of giant CGI monsters beating each other up, it's their deeper, more profound connections to the Human subplots that make them so notorious and sets them apart from other Monster movies. It's like saying make a Jurassic Park movie without Humans... the Dinosaurs are a direct reflection of man's rape of the natural world and arrogance to assume we can play creator. If you subtract the Human characters and only leave the Monsters, you're left with a documentary like Walking with Dinosaurs.

They need to write better arcs for the human characters, not ditch them entirely. 

Chris

They never said that they would ditch the humans entirely.

Just because they bring up the idea to make a film directly focused on the monsters doesn't mean that the entire series will go in that direction. They can still make MonsterVerse movies that focus more on the human story in the future. One potentially experimental film won't dictate the entire series. Plus they never said that it would be completely human-less, only that it would have minimal humans.

Honestly, I think the idea of having a story set through the perspective of the monsters could be interesting if given the chance. People complain about the humans constantly spouting exposition, so imagine a story that's directly told through visuals and that expands on the characterizations of the Titans themselves. Imagine a movie focused on Kong exploring the Hollow Earth, finding traces of his species, allowing the visuals to piece together a much larger story that flesh out, not only the history of Kong's species, but the history of the other Titans and Hollow Earth. Think of something like Genndy Tartakovsky's Primal, and how it was able to tell it's stories without dialogue and relied on the visuals and expressiveness of the characters. I think the MonsterVerse could do something similar. Sure it might be different and a bit risky, but how can know if the idea can work or not if they don't try it. 

I find it ironic that the Reiwa series gets praised for being "experimental", yet somehow the MonsterVerse gets criticized for wanting to do something unique. I've seen fans demanding that Legendary to something "more interesting" with the series, but now those same fans are bashing the mere thought of doing something different. It seems a bit hypocritical. If the Reiwa series gets a pass on doing whatever they want under the guise of being "experimental", then shouldn't the MonsterVerse have the chance to do something experimental as well?

Or does the ability to do something different only apply to the Toho films?   

SasquaDash

"I find it ironic that the Reiwa series gets praised for being "experimental", yet somehow the MonsterVerse gets criticized for wanting to do something unique."

this is only about having a movie without humans. MOnsterverse has had some great original concepts like a parasite to Godzilla and the hollow earth, and most criticism has been on a writing level.

Reiwa has been criticised, most notably the godzilla anime trilogy, FOR TRYING NEW THINGS.

Having a movie with godzilla and new humans is just a direction a lot of people really dont want to see.

I dont want to assume this but dont tke out your frustration with G. H. (Gman) on the rest of us.

Also ive been trying to message you. Are you getting them, the You button at the top should be green if so.

HinikunaGoji

I am kind of skeptical about them doing a "monster only" movie with Godzilla. Heck, given Toho's recent trend of wanting Godzilla to be non-expressive (a trend that I really don't like), I'm not sure if Legendary would be able to do it. However, I do think that they could easily do it with Kong, considering that he is very human-like and expressive, and I think that a movie focused on visual storytelling could be extremely interesting. One of my favorite things about GvK (besides the fights) were the scenes focused on Kong himself, showing him exploring the Hollow Earth and finding traces of his kind (like the temple and the axe) and revealing hints of a much larger story and the history of the Titan War. The fact that those scenes were done completely through visuals and had no dialogue made those moments interesting and it really helped to expand on Kong's characterization. I think a movie where they do more of that could be really interesting and entertaining.

I'm not trying to take my frustrations with Gman out on any of you. The thing is that I really don't want to pick fights with anyone here, but I do find it frustrating that Gman constantly has this condescending attitude towards any one who has a different opinion than his and the fact that he takes any to bash the MonsterVerse and anyone who likes it or is involved with it as a way of boosting his own ego. The fact that he threw juvenile insults at Max Borenstein for merely suggesting an idea that he though could be interesting and then used it as another opportunity to bash the series as a whole WAS uncalled for. And the fact that he responded to my criticisms with his snarky, immature "Bill me" comment and him accusing me of "conveniently targeting" him was even more so. Having different opinions is one thing, but it shouldn't give you the right to be an arrogant jerk who constantly treats others like crap. He acts as if his opinion is superior to ours and that he has the "final say" when it comes to this franchise (which is why I brought up "gatekeeping") and it's really getting to the point where it's unpleasant to even attempt a conversation with him. I know it's pointless to even bring it up, but at the same time behavior like this shouldn't be ignored and normalized. If it is, these forums will only become a cesspool of hatred an constant fighting, and that's the last thing I want. I came here because I wanted to discuss Godzilla and Kong with other fans, I don't want to be constantly fighting.

Also, sorry for not noticing the messages that you've sent, I've been busy with some other things and I haven't been remembering to check them. 

Despite what others say, you’re correct in your assessment SasquaDash and it’s refreshing. The fandom should be a place of respect, and as you noted GMans elitist attitude and others like him can succeed in making the fandom a toxic place to participate in, and that’s been the case on this site for years.

If I had to guess, his response about Borestein stems from a personal dissatisfaction with their own failed filmmaking career, and their wishes to make what they think would be better, with no one else’s opinions mattering due to them being a “superior fan”. It’s unfortunate because he does write good Godzilla content, but the ego sours it.

Being rude and arrogant can be an enjoyable quality if the person doing it isn’t completely serious and can admit when they’re wrong. Just another high ranking member of a fandom with no power outside of the internet. Keep your head cool and don’t let others stomp on your enjoyment of Godzilla :)

Varan23

Indeed, we all enjoy Godzilla for various reasons. Disagreeing with someone's opinion is one thing but treating people like garbage for thinking differently is something that shouldn't be considered "normal fandom behavior". Gman has twisted my criticism of his attitude, claiming that I'm "targeting" him simply because he doesn't like the MonsterVerse, which isn't the case. I personally don't care whether or not he likes the series, that's his own opinion. What I have a problem with is the fact that he looks down on anyone who likes the MonsterVerse and will find any excuse to treat the series, filmmakers, and fans like crap. I remember back in 2019 when some fans were upset by the critical response of King of the Monsters, he posted tweets mocking them for being upset, even making derogatory comments about them. He seems to think that his opinions are superior to others. I find it ironic that he wants people to respect his opinions, but doesn't seem to respect the ones of others. Recently, when Singular Point was released I posted my thoughts on it in the spoilers forum, personally I wasn't really a fan of the show and mentioned why I didn't care for it in my post. Gman pretty much brushed off my opinion like it didn't matter and almost seemed annoyed by the fact that I wasn't praising the show like he was, responding with statements like how people "didn't get it" even accusing people who didn't like the show of having "Cultural Bias", and once again threw the MonsterVerse and its fans under the bus as a way of elevating his own opinions above others. And the times when I got annoyed by his attitude he would counter by saying that I was "misinterpreting" his words and even made a comment stating that I should "learn to read better", which is extremely insulting. 

Elitist attitudes like that are some of the biggest problems with fandoms. To give another example outside of the Godzilla fandom, I've had a lifelong obsession with dinosaurs and prehistoric life, but despite that, I absolutely can't stand the paleontological fandom because they have an extremely arrogant and juvenile attitude towards everyone, acting as if they're "always right" and that others are beneath them. I really don't want this site or the fandom to devolve into something like that. We can have different opinions and discuss them maturely without acting like jerks. The last thing I want is to be constantly fighting.        

"but I do find it frustrating that Gman constantly has this condescending attitude towards any one who has a different opinion than his and the fact that he takes any to bash the MonsterVerse and anyone who likes it or is involved with it as a way of boosting his own ego."

Then ignore it. You have an exhaustive history of convenient targeting whenever I utter my opinion, harsh or not. Note I care less whenever you cite your displeasure for the Anime trilogy or Singular Point, or whatever else we disagree with. Yet you make a thread derailing show out of targeting and incapably handling other people's opinions/criticisms. And since you consistently do this, especially after being invited to engage in private discussion to no avail, I find your claim that you wish to avoid picking fights suspect at best. I have not once picked a fight with you and all criticisms have been directed at the material and their creators. Everything else you seem to take either out of context or far too personally for some reason.

I'm sorry you have a difficult time handling this and have projected goal post moving definitions of words to fixate your frustrations for me, but I recommend letting it go. I find your targeting exhausting as is, I can't imagine doing it is much less tiring.

SasquaDash,
As for the Singular Point thread you are misconstruing for evidence, you seem disappointed I didn't pick a fight with you. I never, "brushed off" your opinion. You simply stated it and didn't care. (Much like you should likely try.)

Not once, however, did ever use the words, "didn't get it" nor did I use the argument for cultrual bias. It was you that tried to claim I was using the series to "discredit the Monsterverse" and when I explained that wasn't the case, you made no rebuttal.

For those who like to see the thread themselves and the assumptions that have been twisted by SasquaDash, here's the thread, in which he derailed to pick a needless fight:

Singular Point Spoiler Discussion

G. H. (Gman)

I don't constantly pick fights with you, however I called you out a couple of times for your condescending attitude towards others, because that type of behavior shouldn't be considered okay. 

You accuse me of twisting and misconstruing your words, yet your doing that to my statements, constantly accusing me of trying to derail/ruin topics whenever I give an opinion that opposes yours and then you take my comments and twist them, claiming that I'm "targeting" you. I've seen others on the site call you out on your behavior in the past, so does that mean that they're somehow "conveniently targeting" you as well? the reason that I don't engage in arguments with others on the site is because they, for the most part, treat the opinions of others respectfully, and they don't have a superiority complex. This has nothing to do with "convenient targeting". You're acting as if I'm somehow out to get you because you dislike the MonsterVerse. I'm going to be clear, I truly don't give a s*** if you hate the MonsterVerse! My problem is that you constantly treat people like crap for disagreeing with you and you constantly look down at the people who do like the series. You deny that your "gatekeeping", yet you're using your place in the fandom and your seniority on this site as a way of acting "superior" to others. Which is the definition of gatekeeping!

You take any quote and try to deflect it to fit your own narrative, like this one:

"And since you consistently do this, especially after being invited to engage in private discussion to no avail, I find your claim that you wish to avoid picking fights suspect at best."

You're twisting my statements and trying to use them as a way to make me look bad, trying to make it seem that I'm some sort of hypocritical troll that's only here to pick fights with you. Which is pretty damn manipulative. You even try to take my refusal to engage you further in other arguments as me not having an argument. The real reason that I've stopped replying to other arguments and haven't tried to have a discussion in your PMs is because I know that it's pointless and that would only be wasting my time.

You come off as controlling, demanding that I (and some others on the site) act a certain way and to ignore certain condescending comments that you've made, trying to get us to think a certain way. I get that you have seniority on this site, but that doesn't give you the right to boss us around.   

It's honestly attitudes like yours that give fandoms a bad name. The Godzilla fandom has constantly gotten s*** from the public in the past, and attitudes like yours and certain other members in the fandom are only doing more damage to the fandom. If you really want to turn this site into a dumpster fire of "toxic fandom", so be it, I for one am not going to be complicit in this. 

SasquaDash

Neither you or G. H. (Gman) are right and both make assumptions about the other that clearly isnt true. 

If you have problems with each other you can talk to each other in private messages.

Dont ruin it for the rest of us. And please neither of you respond.

I'm sorry but this is unnecessary on both parts.

A humanless MonsterVerse film wouldn’t be cheap to make. A film that heavily relies on CGI would cost over $400 million to create, and from a business standpoint, it wouldn’t really make sense for Legendary to invest that amount of money into a film that, to be honest, wouldn’t be a guaranteed critical and financial hit.

Considering how every MonsterVerse film has made less than $570 million USD so far, how likely is it that a MonsterVerse film with minimal or no human involvement in the story would make as much or more money than that? I’d say it would be a film that would either make or break the MonsterVerse, even if Kong were the main character.

Peter Jackson’s King Kong only made $562.3 million USD, which is slightly less than Kong: Skull Island, which made $566.7 million USD, and look at what that movie had going for it: it was a remake of an iconic monster movie from 1933, featured stellar motion capture technology that gave the titular monster a tone of personality, was made by an acclaimed director who just got off of finishing his successful Lord of the Rings trilogy, featured a lot of great actors such as Jack Black, Naomi Watts, Collin Hanks, Kyle Chandler, Adrien Brody, and Andy Serkis, and you can argue it had a lot more going for it in terms of its story than Kong: Skull Island.

Even though it did really good, it didn’t do amazingly at the box office. It made about the same amount of money as the MonsterVerse films. So what are the chances of a MonsterVerse film with no human characters in it making as much or more money than that? It’s not a guarantee.

And just because we as Kaiju fans see the Titans as characters and connect with them on a deeper level doesn’t mean general audiences would do the same. Since Kaiju fans really connect with the monsters, they’d be more naturally inclined to see a movie where they are at the forefront and the humans take a back seat. But Kaiju fans only make up a minority of moviegoers, while the general audience is the majority, and because they are in the minority, they wouldn’t bring in enough money to make the film a financial success. The general audience is the audience who Legendary needs to make their films successful. But because general audience members have always had a stigma towards Kaiju movies and just see them as mindless entertainment, they probably wouldn’t be interested in seeing a Kaiju movie that only has monsters fighting and converging the planet. Therefore, the film wouldn’t be a financial success. I doubt it would be a critical success either since critics didn’t like KOTM due to the human drama. So if they didn’t like a film that featured Toho’s most iconic monsters and some great monster action, what are the chances of those same critics praising a film with only that and no human characters? Once again, it’s very unlikely.

If Legendary is interested in telling a story that features the monsters as the main characters, they should either make it into a graphic novel series or a straight-to-Netflix anime with a reduced budget. I think it’d be cooler if they made a Titan War anime since animation is a great art medium to tell a story that has minimal dialogue and is on such a large scale. Animation would also allow the Titans to be more expressive than they would be in a real-world feature film. And hey, we’re getting a Skull Island anime, so why not make one about the Titan War if it ends up being successful?

TLDR: Even though a humanless MonsterVerse movie would certainly be ambitious, it just wouldn’t be a guaranteed critical and financial success. Therefore, it’d be smarter for Legendary to make humanless content on a smaller scale.

I also feel that fans often assume that general audiences will connect with the monsters on a deeper level just because they’ve connected with the apes from Planet of the Apes, a movie with almost no human characters. Therefore, they assume that they’d run to the theater and see a Kaiju movie that only focuses on the monsters and has no humans in it.

But what made the Planet of the Apes trilogy work is that the non-human characters that the audience was following could communicate their emotions verbally, were humanoid in appearance, and were very close to the size of humans to make them more intimate and relatable. Now compare those characters to Godzilla and Kong, who are much larger and take up a lot more space, making them less dynamic in a setting and limiting what they can bring to the screen.

Because of this, it would make it really hard for general audiences to relate to giant monsters that are over 200 feet tall. This means that if Legendary were to make a humanless MonsterVerse movie, the majority of moviegoers wouldn’t see it.

Jack Capellini

You just voiced all my thoughts about the subject thank you.

Made this account just to say Gman and Duratok are 100% correct. Max Borenstein is a hack writer. His inability to write characters and his consistency in being inconsistent toward the themes of this series are mind numbing and setting the franchise back. I literally cannot get excited for new projects as long as his name is still attached as a writer. He may not be the only one writing these films, and yes Michael Dougherty did the screenplay for KotM, but a guy can only be on so many sinking ships before you start to connect dots and try and keep him off future cruise rides.

Remember when 2014 was being praised by fans even though that film was 90% about the human characters? Now we've just completely walked back and get hyped at the prospect of 2 straight hours of monsters? Shame.

Made this account just to say Gman and Duratok are 100% correct. Max Borenstein is a hack writer. His inability to write characters and his consistency in being inconsistent toward the themes of this series are mind numbing and setting the franchise back. I literally cannot get excited for new projects as long as his name is still attached as a writer. He may not be the only one writing these films, and yes Michael Dougherty did the screenplay for KotM, but a guy can only be on so many sinking ships before you start to connect dots and try and keep him off future cruise rides.

Remember when 2014 was being praised by fans even though that film was 90% about the human characters? Now we've just completely walked back and get hyped at the prospect of 2 straight hours of monsters? Shame.

monsterzero9 has returned! ha-ha! 

He can't write good human characters anyways so....maybe he'll do better but I DOUBT IT.