New Replies (Page 119)

good speech

I blame hollywood producers (and even Toho producers) on why the MonsterVerse or any Godzilla related movie for not venturing outside the status quo, since Godzilla 1998 came out the producers had stopped wanting to be different. regardless of how the director feels about the franchise, Emmerich was chosen as director due to having experiences in disaster movies..so I've read in a time magazine about Godzilla movie history.

So ever since Godzilla 2014 had came out they tried to not experiment outside of what makes a "proper" Godzilla movie.
In order for the Monsterverse to continue, the studios needs to be allowed to experiment.

Ever since seeing the 2014 Godzilla, I was intrigued by it and began watching the showa, heisei, and millennium Godzilla films, and have become a big Godzilla fan ever since.

SasquaDash

Several new ideas you have provided have already been done before, maybe not at the same scale, but still have been. For example GMK explored kaiju in human history and The Mothra Trilogy has also explored kaiju in prehistory. 

Now no story will ever have completely new ideas but Monsterverse itself hasn’t felt as interesting after KOTM. I blame my interest loss in MV on COVID, but it feels very repetitive. It just feels like the Showa era over again. Which isn’t necessarily bad, but it’s not as fresh.

Yes I agree that reiwa does have an addiction to being new and different, to different successes. But back to the anime trilogy, the concepts have not been criticized, their execution has. No one criticized a 50,000 year old, super powerful goji, they criticized how he slow he walks. No one said “Eldritch lovecraftian ghidorah is bad”, but said “Noodle Ghidorah is dumb.”

As for singular point. I’m tired defending it, but I will say i love how when I watch it new things stand out to me.

HinikunaGoji

I would disagree in saying that the Monsterverse hasn't done much in terms of new ideas. The Hollow Earth is definitely the most prominent of the new ideas, but there are a lot of other ideas that they've introduced or expanded on, such as the hierarchy of the titans and Godzilla being King of the Monsters. Sure there were hints of it in some of the older films like Godzilla leading the charge against Ghidorah in Destroy All Monsters and him giving Anguirus orders in Godzilla vs Gigan, but not to the extent that's been shown within the Monsterverse, with Godzilla and Ghidorah being in a constant power struggle, and the lower ranking titans being loyal to who ever wins. The Monsterverse even brought in more natural relationships with some of the titans, like the MUTOs being a parasitic species to Godzilla and the fact that some of the titans seem to be part of the natural order as opposed to being aberrant creatures that are just run around and destroy things. There are certain ideas that have been brought up that can be explored in the future like, the ancient Titan War and the mystery of the Hollow Earth energy (and how it relates to the titans themselves) Not to mention, how it introduced potential ideas that weren't seen in the older films such as the titans playing a role in Earth's natural history (seriously, how many dinosaurs did they accidentally squash?) along with the start of human civilization and how that ties into our culture and mythology (image a tribe of Neanderthals witnessing a titan battle and then depicting it in cave paintings and other forms of primitive art). The ideas of the Monsterverse may not be as out there as the Reiwa series, but in all honesty it doesn't need to be. I feel like you can balance the traditional ideas with the new out there ideas, introducing something new while not straying too far from what came before and potentially alienating the fans of the older stuff, something that I personally feel that the Polygon Trilogy and Singular Point kind of have a problem with.

SasquaDash

Monsterverse hasn’t really done much new. And the new things it does add are not really criticisable because they’re well made. Take the hollow earth, I’ve seen no criticism on that front. 

Notice that in this discussion only concepts and directors motivations have been defended not the movies as a whole. The anime trilogy has many other problems, like the main character not being interesting until the third movie. 

 HinikunaGoji

No, what I'm saying is that the current Japanese films/series are basically being given a free pass for everything and any criticism towards them is immediately brushed aside and ignored, while the American films get ripped apart for not being exactly how the fanbase wants. It honestly doesn't seem fair. This isn't me trying to start fights, it's really frustrating that whenever I try to speak my mind and whenever I don't agree with the majority on this site I'm being told how I'm "wrong" and then accused of trying to "ruin" or "disrupt" forums or that I'm "conveniently targeting" people. Yes, I mentioned how Gman bashed the Monsterverse writers for coming up with an idea that wasn't exactly what he wanted, but that wasn't an attempt to bring up an old fight, it was responding to the fact that he was giving the Polygon Trilogy a pass for not being "hindered by the constraints and expectations of the series" yet bashes the American movies for having the same reason, which is extremely hypocritical. This has nothing to do with past arguments with Gman, this whole double standard and division has been effecting the fandom a lot in the past few years and honestly I find it extremely troubling.

SasquaDash

He hasn’t said that Monsterverse or The anime trilogy is better, your just comparing you past angers with him to this for no reason. All he’s done is pointed out that the director isn’t just being rude or condescending. And provides evidence. You’ve just resorted back to this. 

He hasn’t mentioned Monsterverse once.

G. H. (Gman)

So if Gareth Edwards, Michael Dougherty or Adam Wingard said or did the same thing as Sesheta and Shizino, you would be 100% okay with it, no complaints what so ever? Because with the logic your using, Legendary should be free to do what ever they want with the franchise because it's their "vision" and "creative choices", yet you pretty much bash the Monsterverse for not being exactly the way you want them to be. You keep mentioning how Toho's bringing new ideas to the series by not following what has been done before ("he wanted a fresh pair of eyes to be unhindered by the constraints and expectations of the series"), yet in an older forum you bashed the careers of the Monsterverse writers because they suggested an idea for a movie that wasn't exactly what you wanted, bashing it for not falling in line with the older Toho movies. So somehow the Japanese movies are free to do whatever they want because it's "new" and "experimental", but if the American movies don't completely fall in line with the previous movies then suddenly their not "respectful enough" to the source material? I find it ironic that people are free to nitpick the Monsterverse and talk crap about the series, creators and fans. Yet if someone tries to criticize the Polygon Trilogy or Singular Point, they're either completely shut down or they're met with other fans criticizing them and telling them that they're "wrong". Seems pretty hypocritical...

SasquaDash,
Shizuno was not a fan, but I see no evidence of ill will or contempt toward the franchise as a whole. As a matter of fact it was not Shizuno's idea to not watch Godzilla movies--It was Sesheta's. Sesheta brought Shizuno on precisely to keep his fanboy love of the material in check. (Something I wish Dougherty had done.)

"I’ve known Godzilla since I was a child and I understand the significance of Godzilla thoroughly as a professional who is in the film industry. It was easy to imagine how hard the challenge would be, including how to visualize the beauty of tokusatsu, the stylized special effects which are essential to Godzilla, in an anime adaptation ... Our Godzilla has a dominant presence and is a subject to inspire feelings of awe and respect. It’s called ‘kaijuu’ (‘strange beast’ in Japanese), but its existence isn’t simple but more god-like and transcendent. Godzilla makes us wonder if we must fight against it, or accept its existence just like natural disasters.

I decided on the way we would be depicting Godzilla at an early stage. Godzilla is depicted similarly to a sacred tree at a Shinto shrine which is a subject of worship." - Hiroyuki Sesheta [Source]

This doesn't sound like a lead director who has no love for the franchise. As a result it was Shesheta, the Godzilla fan, who insisted Shizuno not watch Godzilla movies, because he had that element covered. [Source] He wanted a fresh pair of eyes to be unhindered by the constraints and expectations of the series:

"He [Shizuno] can appeal to the mainstream, whereas Urobuchi and I are rather geeky types. Shizuno has an ability to adapt any geeky subject for the mainstream. He has a brilliant talent.

I honestly enjoy interacting with Urobuchi and Shizuno. Thanks to them, I was allowed to concentrate on the areas I’m good at and love as much as possible. I relied on them thinking, ‘even though the world of the movie I set is rather geeky, Shizuno will adjust it for the mass market.’ Urobuchi gave authenticity and respectable formality, and Shizuno gave overwhelming mass appeal to the movie. I was able to give many geeky suggestions because of these guys, who I was able to trust greatly." [Source]

"He's pretty much stated that he went out of his way to anger fans and to go against what was established, because in his mind he was 'doing something right'."

This is such a bizarre, hostile read. I'm not sure how sticking with your creative choices equates intentionally trying to anger a fan base. Sesheta's simply explaining that the divisiveness is a confirmation of going outside of expectation. I'm pretty sure a self-proclaimed fan didn't take the job with the intention of angering a fan base. Nor did Rian Johnson--Contrary to popular belief.

TexanGodzilla

exactly

cities are getting taller, & bigger monsters are cooler.

SasquaDash

That still doesn’t compare to 1998, it was bad marketing and wasn’t honest but no where near over the top. 

HinikunaGoji

It wasn't really the fans making assumptions though, Mechagodzilla was pretty much the main focus of the marketing campaign, with Mechagodzilla being on all the posters and the fact that a ton of merchandise of Mechagodzilla was released, including toys, key chains, and clothing just to name a few, they honestly put more focus into marketing Mechagodzilla than they did for Godzilla himself. An official plot synopsis even flat out stated that Godzilla would be battling Mechagodzilla in the film.

Ok then....

sonictiger

nobody ripped off anybody it’s not an original idea

speaking of Steven Spielberg, one of the first jurassic park movie's influence was Mothra 1961

Yeah Universal ripped off of Godzilla Vs. Biollante in my opinion.

As long as Legendary uses Biollante, they can do whatever they want.

to be frank, the original Jurassic Park novel is based around genetically modified organisms and was being written when Godzilla vs Biollante came out. Not saying Michael Crichton saw Godzilla vs Biollante prior to writing Jurassic Park but when being filmed into the first movie, I bet Steven Spielberg more than likely seen Godzilla vs Biollante since he is a kaiju fan

SasquaDash

I don’t appriciate the comments of the directors. But you realize I mean that Godzilla 1998 was literally EVERYWHERE. I’m not even exaggerating.

And building up to the “fight” is not marketing its build up for the sequels. And planet of the monsters never ever showed other monsters in its trailer, and city of mechagodzilla only mentioned the monsters name. It was fans who made assumptions. Trailers didn’t promise anything. And I went back to check the trailers. Non of the things people were expecting or raging about afterward we’re in the trailer.

but I blame the City on the edge of battle posters

G. H. (Gman)

Here's a screenshot from the article:

Other interviews stated that, despite not knowing what the Godzilla series was about, he actively chose not to watch any of the older films because he felt that he didn't need to. He didn't know much about the franchise and clearly didn't bother with finding out what it was about or what it's appeal was, pretty much showing how little he cared. I also find the fact that he questioned "Does he really have to breathe fire?" and the fact that he thought omitting it would be "interesting", kind of ironic, because the 1998 film was bashed for the same mindset.

As for Sesheta, his statement of, “We welcome getting bashed by the traditionalists. That proves more than anything we succeeded in creating something different.” is pretty telling towards his view of the franchise and its fans. He's pretty much stated that he went out of his way to anger fans and to go against what was established, because in his mind he was "doing something right". If he really cared about the franchise, why would he go out of his way to anger and alienate the fanbase? This is basically like how Rian Johnson went out of his way to anger Star Wars because he viewed the backlash as him "winning". Sesheta's comments about traditionalists not liking the films because they were "too complicated" for them are pretty insulting, not only is he basically implying that the "traditionalist" are too dumb to understand his work, but he's basically trying to inflate his own ego, pretty much saying that his work is "perfect" and it's "the fans fault" for it not doing well. His statements come off as extremely narcissistic and really shows how little he actually cares.

Other statements that they made, such as, "Do you think a Godzilla-Store would work in the 90's?" are also pretty arrogant. As if they think that their work on the franchise is the only reason why it's successful. 

Imagine if the team involved with the Monsterverse acted this way and said these statements, the fanbase would have a fit, accusing them of not caring for the franchise and disrespecting the legacy of the series, demanding that they loose the rights to make Godzilla films immediately. Yet the team working on the Polygon Trilogy said this and, for some reason, they're getting a free pass.

HinikunaGoji

"And the 1998 advertising campaign also helped generate hate for the movie"

The advertising campaign for the Polygon Trilogy is worse though. While 1998 had a more secretive campaign of not fully showing the audience what Godzilla was like, the Polygon Trilogy is straight up guilty for false advertisement. Planet of the Monsters advertised an "planet of monsters" featuring classic Toho Kaiju, they instead gave us a planet with very little monsters and the Toho kaiju were nothing more than 5 five second cameos, with some not even showing up (Hedorah is only name dropped and Rodan and Anguirus were dead before the movie even started). The advertisements for City on the Edge of Battle had a huge focus on Godzilla fighting Mechagodzilla, only for Mechagodzilla to NOT show up and instead they had him as a city that didn't even do anything to fight Godzilla. The Planet Eater's advertisements focused heavily on Godzilla fighting King Ghidorah, only for the movie to have one of the laziest "fights" in the entire franchise (if you could call it a fight) with the Ghidorah heads latching on to Godzilla and basically doing nothing for about ten minutes and then Godzilla one-shoting each of the heads. Not to mention that they built up that "fight" for three movies. None of the three films actually delivered on what they advertised to people, they essentially used the marketing to get people to watch the films, promising something that they never intended to give. Then they have the nerve to say that the fans are at fault for being disappointed. 

cool

So by that logic did Jurassic World rip off Godzilla vs. Biollante from 26 years before it or...

sonictiger

its not like Jurassic world did GMO first

Biollante

Let's face it, GMTs would be ripping off of Jurassic World and frankly I doubt that the MonsterVerse would be executing this tired GMO concept better than JW.

Just saying.

Bigger the better imo

well this went off topic really fast

SasquaDash

it was a device to show passage of time. Godzilla earth was already impossibly powerful when he was 150 ft

And the 1998 advertising campaign also helped generate hate for the movie, and 1998 own it’s own doesn’t necessarily succeed as a movie. The polygon trilogy has more of a chance 

SasquaDash

To be fair, many don’t actually praise the anime trilogy 

HinikunaGoji,
Also true.

Regardless, I think this narrative that the anime trilogy co-directors "hated the franchise and fanbase," has been blown incredibly out of proportion by those looking for extra ammo against it.

SasquaDash,
Pretentious, maybe, but I don't see the comparison with the 1998 film in the least. Roland Emmerich full on explained he was not a Godzilla fan and even claimed after trying to watch 5 or 6 he couldn't go on any further. He didn't want to make the movie to begin with and lamented that he never got to make his asteroid-centric disaster film. [Source]

Hiroyuki Sesheta, by contrast, had said he was an avid Godzilla fan multiple times and has seen the entire series. In the Washington Post article, he highlighted the intentional attempt to reach out to a different audience: “We welcome getting bashed by the traditionalists. That proves more than anything we succeeded in creating something different.” And all that co-director Kobun Shizuno said was, “I’m not a Godzilla expert and so I simply made a film I thought would be enjoyable.” Nowhere is it stated they, "didn't bother watching to older films because they felt like they were 'above it'." Quite the opposite since Sesheta was a fan and Shizuno teamed up with him to get core tenants about the character correct. I get how some of these quotes rub fans the wrong way, but to go as far as to say they, "showed how little they cared for the franchise," is going pretty far based on no evidence.

That's a far, far cry from the 1998 producer Dean Devlin saying, "Both of us [Emmerich] thought it was a dopey idea the first time we talked." [Source] Or Emmerich saying, ""I was never a big Godzilla fan, they were just the weekend matinees you saw as a kid, like Hercules films and the really bad Italian westerns. You’d go with all your friends and just laugh." Among a laundry list of other things. [Source]

As for your pondering, I too often wonder if the Monsterverse were made by Toho, shot-for-shot, but with Japanese actors and tokusatsu visuals would it still be beloved? Or just considered another rehash of the same'ole, same'ole?

Also, that moment when you realize that Kong's axe was 2x bigger than he was in Kong: Skull Island...

monsterzero9

I personally though that him being that big was a little ridiculous, he didn't really need to be that big to be considered a major threat.

@SasquaDash

that was a good speech

@SasquaDash

goji earth is awsome the way he is

HinikunaGoji

I do like how massive he's become, but at the same time I feel like he doesn't really need to be over 400ft, he's already large enough and powerful enough, that him exceeding that height seems a little like overkill. 

G. H. (Gman)

I don't want to sound too combative, but in my opinion the Polygon Trilogy felt like overly pretentious mess that really didn't seem to get what made the franchise popular. I find it ironic that the 1998 movie continues to be hated for being different and for the people involved not caring enough for the franchise, yet the Polygon Trilogy gets a pass despite being guilty of exact same thing. The director and writers literally praised themselves for disappointing the fans and then pretty much implied that those who didn't like their work were too stupid to get it, they even went on record stating that they didn't bother watching to older films because they felt like they were "above it". They publicly showed how little they cared for the franchise and the fans, and based on their own statements it seems like they went out of there way to disrespect the series as much as they could, rather than honoring it. Yet somehow despite this they still get a free pass for it. There's honestly times where I wonder if the Polygon Trilogy or Singular Point were made by an American film studio, would they still get a pass? Or would the fanbase rip it apart in the same way they did to 1998?

HinikunaGoji,
They didn't do well at the Japanese Box Office, but, as usual, context is king. They were only released in 158-159 theaters and their theatrical releases were announced at the same time as the Netflix releases, which were only a month later. Compare that to the 366-448 theaters the other Godzilla films have opened in Japan since 2014 and that's a massive disadvantage.

Also note that audiences knew the movies would be on Netflix a month after the theatrical premieres and it's not a lot of incentive. Also recall Netflix spends hundreds of millions for the acquisiton of movies on their streaming service just for specific regions. A worldwide exclusive deal with Polygon/Toho would not have only made up for the production budgets, but made a hefty profit.

Essentially, it's most likely the anime trilogy made all of its money on Netflix--Which, to be fair, has proven to be a pretty easy model to make money off of. The theatrical releases were just so Toho could squeeze a few more pennies out of it.

G. H. (Gman)

I thought it did not well in the Japanese box office, but maybe I’m wrong.

Ive always liked the trilogy, even when it came out. But avoided the third film for a long time because of reveiws on it. But I got around to it and enjoyed it.