The future of Toho done righto

First Comment, But I like the idea, unfortunately I think Toho wants to continue with Shin Godzilla. 

JonahLee-France,
Toho wants to look forward.

Although it would be cool for Toho to bring back old story lines and continuities like Tsuburaya has done for Ultraman, they don't seem to have any interest in that.

Godzilla: Tokyo S.O.S. flopped in Japan and was the second least attended film of the Millennium series. Toho was already considering shutting the series down after Godzilla x Megaguirus flopped, but the fact Tokyo S.O.S. did worse makes the prospect of them picking up a story line from that film unlikely.

GMK was the most successful Godzilla film of the Millennium series and I'd love to see a sequel, but the film is 20 years old. I think our best hope is that Shusuke Kaneko come back someday to direct another film, albeit, in a new continuity. As of 2007 he was still open to returning.

SarcasticGoji,
The current producer of the Toho Godzilla series, Keiji Ota, stated in 2018 that they will not make a sequel to Shin Godzilla, even though it was incredibly successful. Instead they have an idea for a cinematic universe of their own. Whether or not this will materialize is yet to be seen or officially announced in any capacity.

I was just thinking of making a fanfiction where space colonizing humans created an army of mechakaiju

@Gman

He said they planned to make a Cinematic universe, that included Shin Godzilla. I know that the movie was cancelled but the Universe has not been reported to. But thank you for the note anyway

First Comment

SarcasticGoji,
You're mistaken. Keiji Ota specifically said that Shin Godzilla was not a conducive movie to build a cinematic universe around. Here's his exact quote from 2018:

"'Shin Godzilla' was a huge hit, but instead of thinking of doing the obvious idea of making a 'Shin Godzilla 2', instead think about a world that can be used for a long time, I'd rather make a World of Godzilla." [Source 1, Source 2]

Shin Godzilla 2 was not cancelled, because there were never any plans to make it, nor was there an official announcement. English news outlets mistranslated much of the information and misconstrued what Mr. Ota was explaining.

That makes sense, but nothing is confirmed, and saying that the Godzila Universe by Toho will not include Shin Godzilla is not confirmed either.

SarcasticGoji,
Granted, but that was not the dispute. The dispute was the claim that they had, "planned to make a Cinematic universe, that included Shin Godzilla," which is the opposite of what Ota said and is conjecture otherwise.

Plus, given the producer intentions, and the fact that Anno and Higuchi are involved with a Shin Ultraman movie that Tsuburaya is trying to push as a trilogy, a Shin Godzilla sequel doesn't seem very likely. Unless, of course, something significantly changes with the Godzilla Strategy Council's intentions.

One Question: Godzilla Council? 
Honestly I am not trying to argue, I obviously misread information.

first comment

SarcasticGoji,
The Godzilla Strategy Council, sometimes called Goji-Kon, was established by Toho in October of 2014 and announced by Yukan News. The goal of the Council was announced, "to decide the direction of the Godzilla Franchise for the near future." [Source 1, Source 2]

Essentially everything you've seen Toho do on a marketing scale from apparel, to official English Instagrams, Twitter and websites, more prominent showings at cons, the influx of figures, the Criterion Collection release, etc, were all, in part, pushed by the Council in an attempt to secure the franchise's longevity and popularity around the world. This includes investing in movies/series made by other studios including Legendary, Polygon, Bones and Orange.

Essentially everything you've seen come out of the franchise since 2014 has been pushed by Goji-Kon.

I really want to see some old and forgotten Kaiju get the spotlight again. Similarly to Star Wars, I also would like to see Toho be more experimental and try tapping into different Genre's.

Give us a new Space Amoeba or War of the Gargantuas movie, a King Ceasar Origin story movie in ancient Japan, a Destoroyah Horror/Thriller movie, a King Ghidorah solo movie taking place on Venus, ETC.

@Gman
I had no idea that was a thing, thank you for telling me.

Thanks Gman

Back on to the topic,
But if I were to take over for the next Toho Godzilla I'd make a back-to-basics tokusatsu production with a massive budget and plenty of time--Enough that it pushes the boundaries of the practical aspect further than we've seen since Gamera 3.  I'd put the budget towards a crew involving Kiyotaka Taguchi and hire Takashi Yamazaki to write and direct it. Shirogumi would lend a hand on digital touch-ups/shots. Hiroyuki Sawano does the score.

The only way this loses is if Toho makes some silly mandates.

Tokusatsu is fun, but more expensive than CGI, and not as good looking.

SarcasticGoji,
The more expensive aspect is debatable, depending on the project, but I disagree with the "not as good looking." It depends on what kind of "look" you're going for. Just because something is not realistic, does not mean it looks inferior.

CG has become a fast-food conglomerate of everything looking the same and hollow. I'd prefer Godzilla return to the roots of the special effects style it birthed instead of copying and pasting stuff we see all the time.

One of the (many) reasons I'm not a fan of the Monsterverse is because it just looks like any other Hollywood blockbuster. Everything we've seen in King of the Monsters, for example, we've seen in movies like Lord of the Rings, Pacific Rim, Rampage, Clash of the Titans--The list goes on.

Tokusatsu dares to be different and look different. It doesn't try to be realistic, it tries to look fantastical. To quote David Kalat:

”American audiences conditioned to expect realism conclude anything short of that goal must be a mistake. By contrast, Japanese art often values beauty, poetry, and fantasy above realism."

Therefore I consider tokusatsu art, and Hollywood CG just mainstream Happy Meals.

@Gman

I honestly prefer CGI even though I love tokusatsu. My dream would be to combine the two, but Hollywood wouldn’t really do that. But as much as I respect tokusatsu, it is very limited compared to CGI. 

I don’t think I have said this before, but my favorite Godzilla films are the original and Shin, (I won’t say more, because that would be too long.) I get what you say about cgi, but I disagree. Yes Hollywood uses CGI extensively, but when handled right, it can be used very well. CGI is 3D animation, simulation of light, and interaction with the environment. I personally love anything that involves drawing or sculpting whether virtual or not. 

Shin Godzilla is a prime example CGI and puppetry used right. It reminds me of the original Godzilla, while being completely different. The movement is familiar, but it feels unnatural, kind of like how shin is portrayed. I also love that they used motion capture, it isn’t perfect, but it is a step to combining CGI with tokusatsu.

And I can see why you get tired of Monsterverse, and like you said, the truth is that in order to be taken seriously, Monsterverse has to appeal to the masses, therefore giving up its artistic feel to it. Many movies these days forget that film is an art form and just get sucked into the visual aspects.

Audiences are having limited attention spans these days, so they might not want to watch a meaningful film anymore. 

I slightly disagree with your saying that CGI isn’t art. Art is subjective, not everything appeals to everyone. Being a creative person doesn’t mean you draw or sculpt, being a mathematician has to be creative to solve hard equations. In My personal opinion, I think that CGI can be used to create art. As much as I love Monsterverse and all these new movies, they focus more on keeping the audience’s attention than creating art. In this the creator makes a mockery of his status as an artist, by using his creation for commercial purposes. All this world cares about now is efficiency and entertainment.

I know I just explained your thoughts but it was an interesting topic that you brought up.

@SarcasticGoji

I agree, for the most part. My top favs of the franchise are the original Godzilla and Godzilla 2014

Indeed and an ongoing conversation. But I also don't find tokusatsu limited. Tokusatsu does exactly what it is meant to do. It's the value of look and feel over realism.

I've explained this before, but representational art demands that special effects must recreate our reality and trick the audience into believing it's real. It represents how something might be seen in our world.

Presentational art creates its own reality where the visual world is vastly different from our own. It presents its own reality that does not value realism, but visualizes a world of miniatures sufficient unto itself, not unlike a stage show. And that's the world that Tsuburaya created with Tokusatsu. And this world allows stories that typically wouldn't work with representational art.

With tokusatsu Godzilla is literally "King" of an entire effects style. The techniques, effects and visual look that Godzilla popularized made so many other franchises possible: Ultraman, Gamera, Super Sentai, Metal Heroes, Kamen Rider, Daimajin, etc.

But in Hollywood Godzilla is a pauper--He bows to the techniques done before him and popularized by Jurassic Park and Terminator 2.

And back then, perhaps CG was a very artistic thing to implement. But today producers force filmmakers to use it because it's quick and "dependable". And since most CG artists aren't unionized, studios take advantage of the situation. For example, J.J. Abrams wanted to build a puppet for Maz Kanata in The Force Awakens, but Disney and time were getting worried it wouldn't be finished on time and unreliable. So they stepped in to make her CG. The Thing remake was initially all practical effects, but the studio stepped in to redo most of the effects as CG, because they felt it would sell better.

CG has become fast food in the film industry and, quite frankly, I find it boring to watch.

I'll take the latest Ultraman series any day.

It's really sad that Hollywood has seem to have gotten an addiction when it comes to CGI. I really miss the times where CGI was only used because it was either impossible at the time or to make something look better in the edit. CGI is meant to enhance a practical effect, not replace it.

Probable the best example of this is Mad Max: Fury Road. Yes, there was CGI used, but 95% of what your seeing in the movie was REAL. If it could be done IRL, they did it with them only using CGI because it put the actors in serious danger.

The same goes for Godzilla. Though a fully CGI Godzilla loses some of the magic the original had, it seems like the techniques used back in the 50's has slowly evolved in what we know as Motion Capture. It's debatable if Motion capture should count as CGI or enhanced practical effects, but the general idea of a person in a suit performing the actions IRL does sort of live on.

I hope I haven't just repeated what somebody else has already said, but it's just something I've been thinking about for a while.

I personally love the idea of CGI, to be able to take something you create and turn it into a moveable model. As for it being used to supply the audience, that is where it loses art. Being an artist myself, I have always tried going for realism in everything I do. I try to find out new techniques for my drawings to have a correct 3D shapes, how to cast shadows correctly, where is it more exposed more, etc. I prefer to draw realistically, but I don’t think that demeans from my creativity. 

Yes CGI is forced onto artists, in the film industry, but I do not think that CGI itself is the problem, but as you say, is used used so much that any artistic meaning with it is nullified. Then again, I know a lot of these movies are loved, but later Showa Era movies, not specifically Godzilla, (after the first three movies) This is when tokusatsu started to make a lot of money, more movies were made with less budgets to gain money for the company. 

We do not receive this today, so we know actually appreciate the art for what is was. But I think art is hard for Industry to handle. Industries will always go for money, even if it means sacrificing the integrity of the art they produce. 

I’m not trying to demean Tokusatsu in any way, but saying that history repeats itself. One thing I find, especially in later films, is the lack of staging. Scenes in visual art, have to be staged for the eye to easily detect emotion through color, or positions of characters, and also to help guide the eye to look  at the right things. Yes there are instances of staging in a lot of Tokusatsu, which could be considered part of the art, but that is what is commonly part of Abstract Art, which is hard and frustrating to look at and understand, (at least for me.)

Using these things, I will explain how I think Modern Tokusatsu would work. First, yes Godzilla would be portrayed in a city with miniatures. My camera angles would be different, instead of the action head one, I would try to make it more immersive, like in G 2014, where the camera angles would come from the people’s perspective. I would use debris to guide people’s eyes at the right characters, and use red and blue lights to create a clashing looking environment, like fire and Godzilla’s atomic breath. Now second, I would incorporate CGI. I would accurate render and cast light from certain parts of the scene, such as, one thing I don’t see much, Godzilla’s dorsal fins actually illuminating buildings around them, with blue. I would also add effects to make the suit look more life like, with blinking eyes, and subtle breathing effects.

That’s how I would do Tokusatsu.

I think its noteworthy to mention that Jurassic Park series hasn't completely do away with practical effects.

Xenotaris,
They definitely tried though.

Jurassic park was never purely practical effects, much of the original was CGI

It was a mixture of both. There are 14 minutes of dinosaur visual effects in the original Jurassic Park. About 4 minutes used CG.

The point is Trevorrow wanted to use significantly more animatronics in Jurassic World, but the studio didn't allow him. That number is significantly different.

In any case, realism is fine if realism is what you're going for, but it's overused and CG has become boring to look at. Besides, realism is not why I got into the Godzilla franchise--I probably wouldn't be a fan if it were about realism. And tokusatsu fits the franchise much better, especially since it's the reason tokusatsu exists.

@Gman

Your last statement confuses me. I said I like realism when I create art and appreciate it in others art. But I never said it was the reason I like Godzilla. Personally I think realism suits some of the very well, some are Gojira 1954 and Shin Godzilla and G(14) Godzilla didn’t start out as the fun franchise that many people know of today. I understand how you feel about CGI, but I kind of like fast food.

SarcasticGoji,
Just because Godzilla '54, for example, wasn't "fun" doesn't mean it was "realistic". Out of the gate, Tsuburaya was not trying to compete with Hollywood. He called upon Japan's technique for miniatures inspired by bonsai plants, and the like, to create a completely unique look unto Japan. And he did.

That look endures today as a decision made by tokusatsu filmmakers. It's far less prevalent and more unique of a look than the fast food we see today.

I guess I didn’t explain my reasoning, it was realistic I the sense that there was a natural disaster that had to be stopped. I don’t mean every tiny detail. If you watch the first two movies, you can see the difference.

I like In and Out

actually Gman, the reason why Godzilla became a Tokusatsu wasn't out of art but out of efficiency (Time is money friend!). Originally Godzilla was going to be stop-motion like King Kong (1933) but it would have taken Toho several years to complete all of the stop motion effects and that would have been very expensive for Japan's first monster movie. Initially Gojira was a flop in japan but became a success in America through Godzilla: King of the Monsters! (1956) which help pole vault Godzilla's popularity in Japan years later after the American Edit was redubbed in Japanese. 

This is off topic, But I love the little editing mistakes in the original. The movie is great, but it’s age does show a little. 

Xenotaris,
You're half right. While Tsuburaya wanted to use stop motion special effects, he calculated before Godzilla was even designed that such a project would take exactly seven years to complete.

According to the book, "Eiji Tsuburaya: Master of Monsters", tokusatsu was developed as an art form out of the necessity of time. So while the style was developed due to resource constraints, Tsuburaya had no interest in turning back from it once the ball was rolling. Remember, after Godzilla '54 Tsuburaya had access to some of the most advanced visual effects technology in the world, including an optical printer of which only four existed by the time he got one. Tsuburaya founded a successful style, not unlike film noir of the 1940s or German expressionism in the 1920s and he wasn't turning back.

As far as "Gojira was a flop in japan" that is categorically, 150% false. I'm not sure where you got that idea, because literally every viable source speaks to the contrary.

According to Kogyotsushin, in 2021, the original film is the oldest movie in the top 25 most attended films of all time. It has an attendance record of 9.62 million which is higher than every Godzilla movie in Japan except for one. It was even more successful than Seven Samurai of the same year by 2.62 million tickets. The book, "Ishiro Honda: A Life in Film from Godzilla to Kurosawa" says, "The film set a new opening day record for a Toho feature," and explains how it sold out theaters. "Eiji Tsuburaya: Master of Monsters" also says it broke box office records becoming one of the biggest films of the year, earning awards and establishing Toho as, "the world's premier visual effects facility."

So while the 1956 cut, Godzilla, King of the Monsters helped Godzilla reach international fame, it was already a box office smash in Japan. There is no reason they would have fast tracked Godzilla Raids Again for a release three months later had it not been. There also would have been no insentive to green light Rodan and The Mysterians, both of which were completed before the American cut's release.

From a scientific view, any fact has at least a small amount of bias. Plus as much as we love and respect the creators of Godzilla. We were not there. We do not truly know their thoughts and motivations. And Xenotarus chose to look at what happened in one way, while Gman chose another. Simply stating that something is used too much by producers or came from a tight budget does not get rid of any artistry that can be achieved. 

One thing also. Godzilla isn’t real. As much as we love characters, they don’t exist. They are not ours. The creators get ownership, Yet their lives did not just revolve around Godzilla or Ultraman. They had lives too. Evidence of this is after Ishiro Honda was asked to make another film for the Hesei era, he said something along the lines of, “Can’t you let me make something else?” I just wanted to say that people’s memories get fractured over time. We don’t know how much they remembered. I recently moved, and I thought it was life changing, but now I find it hard to picture the old house.

My point is, the people who created Godzilla, indeed are People. 

First Comment

okay I was wrong about the flop but imagine if they would have used stop motion rather than suitmation

Xenotaris,
We would've gotten far less Godzilla movies, many adored franchises, TV series and films like Super Sentai and Ultraman would not exist, the series might've gone on a hiatus even sooner with no garuntee of returning due to the fall of Japanese cinema in the late 60s & economic crisis in the mid-70s and a unique style of visual effects would not be included in cinema history.

Sounds boring.

In any case, I may not seem like but I am a big fan of Tokusatsu-style special effects but I also a big fan of Stop-Motion, Puppetry, Go-Motion, Animatronics, and yes the big bad CGI. Special Effects are all awesome, beats watching a non-special effect movie

I think it’s unfair to say on special effect is better than the other. Comparing the two and saying which is better does not make it a fact, but a statement of opinion.

In my opinion problems I have with CGI,

- Often Not done well,

- Over used in certain films, and you can tell there is no set. 

- So big and loud that it detracts from the acting

- Even done well, you can still tell the difference

My Problems with Tokusatsu,

- More expensive 

- limited flexibility 

- Sacrifices logic and believability 

- Not that expressive 

- Suits are prone to breaking and decay

I think that used together,

CGI and Tokusatsu could be amazing.

Also Xenotaris, I’ve been trying to identify the theropod on the picture below your statements, (please remind me what they’re called), I thought it was a juvenile Dilophosaurus, but now I’m not sure

Anyone up for Shin Godzilla vs. Legendary Godzilla?

Yes! Shin Goji is my favorite! 
 

@SarcasticGoji
Its a Dilophosaurus unless you are talking about the blue guy then I don't know. Also Legendary/Monsterverse Godzilla FTW, Shin Godzilla reminds me of a Space Godzilla + Biollante + Destoroyah + Orga type villian than a proper Godzilla