Is MV Godzilla a inherently pro-nuclear metaphor?

Too far to- neutral doesn't seem like goody two shoes to me, but difference of opinion I guess.

Well obviously I was gone too long to catch all the venom this time around, so I'll simply wrap up my thoughts with this:

I can't believe I live in a world where there's a pro-nuclear Godzilla movie, but I think I'm even more dumbfounded that there are plenty okay with it and defending it. Why should Japan not have an entire franchise dedicated to the dangers of nuclear proliferation? After all, the United States already has its own franchises that praise it without fault! Radioactive spiders give people powers, remember? An alien hero standing for truth, justice and the American way gets energy from the sun's radiation without any of those pesky negative effects. "Gamma" radiation makes a different type of mean, green fighting machine. But how dare the Godzilla franchise fly in the opposite direction, right? It's only been doing it for 65 years.

We have enough western franchises doing that and putting the pro-nuke stamp on Godzilla is the most cynical form of whitewashing we could've committed against the property. I have no problem with the series tackling other issues, but to contradict its core basics doesn't speak highly about the filmmakers behind the 2019 flick. I have no doubt Dougherty's a fan, but I don't think he's the kind of fan I'd want to hang out with.

Um, hold up. Spider-Man, Superman and Hulk aren't pro-nuclear/radiation, they used what was at the time a new and still mysterious branch of science to handwave their superpowers, people have been doing that for centuries with much less "objectively dangerous" breakthroughs, look at the Rocketeer or Buck Rogers. I'm pretty sure the reason behind Superman's power was "alien" first and "sun" when they needed an explanation(plus he debuted before WWII and nuclear weapons). Hulk has always been a tragic figure, the Gamma radiation is viewed as a curse, no matter how hard he tries to fix things it always reverts to worse state. If you've noticed, as our understanding of radiation grew, character's origins were tweaked to address this in new interpretations. Spider-Man got bitten by a bioengineered spider, Hulk experimented on himself with gamma radiation instead of getting hit with a random explosion, Superman's physiology takes radiation differently than humans. And if you really want to be picky, more recent comics have dealt with the negatives of the radioactive origins of those characters, Spider-Man ended up killing Mary Jane once because his bodily fluids were just as radioactive as he was.

I'm fine if we want to end the discussion, but I needed to point out that trying to say something is pro-nuclear solely because it doesn't explicitly condemn radiation is just plain wrong. Plenty of franchises and stories use it is as a powerful catalyst to get the plot moving and nothing more, which is why my initial argument was that we were reading too much into this, not everything needs to be a deep philosophical commentary to be worth enjoying.

It feels like this whole pro-nuclear MonsterVerse thing is just another excuse to dunk on KOTM, which fine, everyone's entitled to their opinions, but please don't try to make things out to be a war of ideals when they're in reality probably not, at least not intentionally.

Gomi: Ninja Monster

Ditto

G.H. (Gman)

We're not saying we're ok with a pro-nuclear Godzilla... but this wouldn't exactly be the first time? Later in the Showa era Godzilla was practically a good guy. And what about Minilla? They didn't seem all that anti-nuclear, because they were inherently pro-nuclear by saving the world and not even leaving radiation in the places they pass through. Not to dunk on the Showa era at all, but at least MV Godzilla leaves the area he passes through uninhabitable for humans. And don't say "oh but he didn't start off as pro-nuclear" because it's the same case here. Everyone was raving about the threat of radiation and with the nuclear plant disaster at the beginning and the MUTOs, it seems to have properly shown mostly anti-nuclear things. Maybe Godzilla seemed kind of like a hero, but most people doubted that throughout the film and it was constantly explained and re-explained that Godzilla was "an alpha predator" and just doing his job, so at WORST (or, best for nuclear?) he was a neutral entity. Honestly, this pro-nuclear stuff based on Godzilla fighting an evil Kaiju because he doesn't like them is faulty at best because of all the previous movies, especially later in the Showa era. It's not intentionally pro-nuclear, and doesn't really seem to be pro-nuclear. Gomi here is arguing it's not, and I'm arguing that and/or his hero thing is just set up for an "evil" arc to balance it. Even if the latter part is just theory, it's not exactly a flimsy one. And the former, again, IT DOESN'T SEEM TO BE PRO-NUCLEAR. 

Even if we did decide it's "ok for it to be pro-nuclear," which we aren't actually saying (well, I said that earlier, BUT what I meant is that it's ok for it to be pro-nuclear-ISH. Not full on pro-nuclear, but more of a muddled ground like what nuclear power kind of is), so what? Sure, by your opinion (and to be honest, some of my own too) we'd kind of be "betraying the franchise" or "missing the entire meaning," but so what if we are? I mean, come on, so what? I mean, is it really any of your business to be "dumbfounded that there are plenty okay with it and defending it?" I mean, is it your personal business, does it really warrant insult? Because if you really think it does, I'm not sure you're the kind of fan I'd like to hang around. It's not like we're hating on it or insulting it, or even critiquing it. We're explaining why it might SEEM pro-nuclear. It really isn't more pro-nuclear than the late Showa era or Final Wars. By the way, when you mentioned the hulk, I thought you were talking about Hanna Barbara's Godzilla or late Showa era Godzilla at first lol

TheLazyFish:

G.H. (Gman) already addressed that point about the Showa Era in a response to me, which boiled down to "A victim of nuclear power doing good does not make the core message pro-nuclear." I don't quite agree with all his points, but it has been covered, might want to check back a page to see what he thinks.

Also I think a point of note is that while Godzilla has been overtly heroic on many occasions, aside from Showa those have been primarily American adaptations, which might be a part of what he's trying to say.

Gomi: Ninja Monster

Sorry, really sleepy right now and so my memory isn't all that great right now lol

TheLazyFish:

For a lazy fish, you seem to be tired a lot. :P

@Gomi: Ninja Monster

"Um, hold up. Spider-Man, Superman and Hulk aren't pro-nuclear/radiation, they used what was at the time a new and still mysterious branch of science to handwave their superpowers,"

Ok, sure, but that argument isn't helpful with our current discussion.

"people have been doing that for centuries with much less "objectively dangerous" breakthroughs,"

So if that's the case, then where's the horror movie about sticky notes or paper? See why your argument doesn't work here?

"I'm pretty sure the reason behind Superman's power was "alien" first and "sun" when they needed an explanation(plus he debuted before WWII and nuclear weapons)."

If that was the case, then you should remember that at the time, the word alien meant something like the Martians from War of the Worlds, not a humanoid from another planet. Again, it goes against your argument.

"Hulk has always been a tragic figure, the Gamma radiation is viewed as a curse, no matter how hard he tries to fix things it always reverts to worse state."

That's not even his character arc at all. Why are you trying so hard to win a losing battle?

"If you've noticed, as our understanding of radiation grew, character's origins were tweaked to address this in new interpretations. Spider-Man got bitten by a bioengineered spider, Hulk experimented on himself with gamma radiation instead of getting hit with a random explosion, Superman's physiology takes radiation differently than humans. And if you really want to be picky, more recent comics have dealt with the negatives of the radioactive origins of those characters,"

Yeah, but it doesn't mean you can do that if the character is anti-nuclear, like Godzilla.

"Spider-Man ended up killing Mary Jane once because his bodily fluids were just as radioactive as he was."

Yeah, but the key word is once. And they never mention it in the movies, so that argument is in vain, at best.

"I'm fine if we want to end the discussion, but I needed to point out that trying to say something is pro-nuclear solely because it doesn't explicitly condemn radiation is just plain wrong. Plenty of franchises and stories use it is as a powerful catalyst to get the plot moving and nothing more, which is why my initial argument was that we were reading too much into this, not everything needs to be a deep philosophical commentary to be worth enjoying."

First of all, let's not end this because there is still much more needed to be discussed. And second, Godzilla's whole point is to be anti-nuclear, so if course there is going to be some backlash towards him becoming pro-nuclear, and those backlashes have plenty of reasons, so they aren't just mindless, one point arguments, so don't make that excuse.

"It feels like this whole pro-nuclear MonsterVerse thing is just another excuse to dunk on KOTM, which fine, everyone's entitled to their opinions, but please don't try to make things out to be a war of ideals when they're in reality probably not, at least not intentionally."

And like I said before, these aren't just mindless, one-point backlashes with no real reason behind it. These are well-thought, highly intellectual backlashes with well and thought-out reasons.

"Spider-Man, Superman and Hulk aren't pro-nuclear/radiation, they used what was at the time a new and still mysterious branch of science to handwave their superpowers,"

Wow. Just. Wow. The air whooshing over the scalp must've made a terrific sound though.

I can't believe there's people in the fandom like this. I truly, truly can not--And yet, I've been a part of it for so long I'm not entirely sure why I'm surprised.

So, using radiation as an excuse for heroes, doesn't speak to Western values and views on radiation whatsoever? Got it. Check.

What a depressing thread...

I do tend to make depressive threads.

MincraftDinoKaiju:

I know the Superhero tangent wasn't relevant, but saying those characters are somehow praising radiation is wrong, which is what I was addressing. That whole block is devoted to the superhero point and comics in general, not the overall discussion, so none of the arguments will work with the Godzilla argument because they're not supposed to. You're reading a lot of those points out of context, so correcting them will only derail this further.

G.H. (Gman) said he was wrapping up his thoughts, so I just wanted to correct his use of superheroes in his argument and restate my original point, leaving the opportunity for the discussion to wind down, which at that point it largely already had.

I never said they weren't intellectual arguments, all I wanted to say was that they were highly intellectual arguments surrounding a core point that has NOT been confirmed in any capacity, just speculated on and theorized for and against. "Is MV Godzilla an inherently pro-nuclear metaphor?" was the question, we got into an extended tangential debate jumping off the conclusion/assumption that it was, the part about whether it actually was or not got largely disregarded.

Ergo: I think we're reading too much into this, it's okay if you don't like the movie, let's not get into a huge debate about the deeper meaning of something that was only a question in the first place.

MDK

"And like I said before, these aren't just mindless, one-point backlashes with no real reason behind it. These are well-thought, highly intellectual backlashes reasons."

No offense... but that kinda seems like patting yourself on the back lol. They are, but... I wouldn't say "highly intellectual" though. I mean... have any of us actually made "highly intellectual" points? I mean, that last sentence as a whole doesn't make much sense to me, but then again, I am really sleepy so my brain isn't working as well as it should... even when it does, it's not exactly  the best of brains a person could have... Yes Gomi, I am sleepy. I am always incredibly sleepy. I suck at sleeping, which is part of the reason I'm so lazy and sleepy all the time. Also, even when I do get enough sleep... I'm in a perpetual state of sleepiness lol. Think a sloth or koala, but fish. Halibut? Stingray? Angel Shark? I don't know.

"Yeah, but the key word is once. And they never mention it in the movies, so that argument is in vain, at best."

Why is that in vain? 

"First of all, let's not end this because there is still much more needed to be discussed. And second, Godzilla's whole point is to be anti-nuclear, so if course there is going to be some backlash towards him becoming pro-nuclear, and those backlashes have plenty of reasons, so they aren't just mindless, one point arguments, so don't make that excuse."

First of all, I think we maybe should end this, because I don't think any of us are going to convince one another on our points, because a lot of it is opinionated. Also, the thing about debating is it makes you entrenched in your own beliefs that you aren't likely to change our beliefs on this matter in a single discussion. Second of all, as we keep saying, he's not really becoming pro-nuclear. That point about "A victim of nuclear power doing good does not make the core message pro-nuclear," is true, but that also means the same applies here. This time, Godzilla isn't really a victim of radiation as much of a byproduct. So if doing something doesn't change his overall theme, and if he was portrayed as completely neutral that just so happened to do "good" by killing the mutos, then he isn't pro-nuclear. He's neutral towards it at best? Worst? I don't know. The same as how being creatures that are inherently neutral/ just wanting to reproduce, but feeding on radiation and accidentally hurting humans in the process wouldn't make Mutos anti-nuclear. So this point essentially helps prove the MV Godzilla still wouldn't really be pro-nuclear. 

"Yeah, but it doesn't mean you can do that if the character is anti-nuclear, like Godzilla"

Um... you can. Not that you should, but by your own logic, they can without too much bad. If it's ok for the "pro-nuclear" to show some anti-nuclear points, it should be ok for anti-nuclear to show some pro-nuclear points. So it'd be ok if this movie is somewhat pro-nuclear. Which it isn't really. 

"That's not even his character arc at all. Why are you trying so hard to win a losing battle?"

Why are you denying his character arc? That wasn't really the Hulk's character arc, yeah. IT WAS BRUCE BANNER'S!!! You know, the guy most affected by the radiation? The guy who tried so hard to get rid of the hulk, fearing the monster he had become? The guy that, no matter how hard he tried, was stuck as a monster because of how radiation changed him? Did you... pay attention to what Bruce Banner was afraid of in the Avengers of comics?

"If that was the case, then you should remember that at the time, the word alien meant something like the Martians from War of the Worlds, not a humanoid from another planet. Again, it goes against your argument."

What? How does that go against his argument at all? The design of the alien- No, that doesn't change the overarching theme. He was supposed to be a superhero people can relate to, which is why he looks human, but is an ALIEN so that he can have the powers he does. The sun was just thrown in LATER as an excuse for his powers, not "radiation being an overarching theme."

The main message in KOTM is environmental, and less about the radiation aspect. Hell, they showed that the creatures that were all born of radiation, the Titans, were destroying almost everything. They showed that places they went through became uninhabitable for people. They showed that soon, the human race will be extinct because of these radioactive, god like creatures. It was only at the end that they calmed down and just... roam and sleep. The reason Godzilla was "good" was A. So that people can relate to him, and perhaps a more subtle theme, B. that really, radioactive power is neutral. It's how it's used. Most of the titans are really indifferent towards humans. They only become aggressive towards us when Ghidorah wakes them up, or when attacked by people, like Rodan. They become calm under a calmer alpha, like Godzilla, and actually can do a little good for the environment, just under the right circumstances. However, they will always be neutral. No matter how much "good" they do, they don't really care at all about it. It's all just a byproduct. Why else did they keep reiterating that Godzilla is a neutral force? That he won't ALWAYS be doing "good" or be on our side? It's a movie showing that radiation can be used for GOOD and BAD, but it's really just neutral. It doesn't do bad unless used for such or someone does something well intended, but stupid with it (Titans woken up by Ghidorah= nuclear warfare and Rodan destroying the fighter jets after being attacked=experimenting with radiation or nuclear power plant disasters). It doesn't do GOOD unless someone specifically uses it for good, or it accidentally does something a little good by being around (Mothra saving people and being fairly non-lethal to humans=nuclear power plants doing some good, like supplying us with a possibly preferable alternative to oil, and the accidental good by being around, but still doing some accidental damage=Godzilla fighting Kaiju and inadvertently helping humans, but also destroying their homes and leaving their cities desolate at the same time). So really, it's not a pro-nuclear Godzilla movie as much as it is a neutral-nuclear Godzilla movie or whatever you want to call it. 

"So if that's the case, then where's the horror movie about sticky notes or paper? See why your argument doesn't work here?"

First of all, paper wasn't new when movies were invented. Second of all, WTF? That doesn't disprove the argument at all. Third of all, you are missing the core concept of science fiction, that they're usually showing the future benefits or horrors of new technologies or ideas. That's what I think Gomi was referencing. Fourth of all, it isn't always in HORROR movies, or even movies in general, it's usually in Scifi novels. 

G.H. (Gman):

Gosh dangit what did I say about deescalating the situation? *sigh*

What I was saying is that comic books and stories, especially science fiction and science fantasy, will latch on to whatever new science comes along, regardless if the extrapolations they make turn out to be wrong later on. For example, Blue Beetle, Hourman and Underdog used pills to gain their powers because vitamins and steroids were the hot new thing. Radiation, at the time, was just another new toy in the toybox for writers. The point was rarely to promote positive views on those things, just to give a serviceable explanation as to why heroes had powers regular people did not so they could get on with the story.

 @G.H (Gman)

I understand that we seem to be on the same boat with this topic, but I'm not really as knowledgeable in this topic as you are. However, I do still think that your points are valid.

Well said Gomi and TheLazyFish

Xenotaris

Thank you. It means a lot. But despite our disagreements, I have to say that G.H. (Gman) and MinecraftDinoKaiju have had some well said points.

well yes there is a bit of truth on both sides but I agree that MV Godzilla is nuclear neutral

Xenotaris

As do I

Speaking of energy, I found something interesting out. Scientists are finding out how to turn carbon emissions into carbon nanotubes. This can help reduce carbon emissions and help make renewable energy a more gradual process as not to have severely damaging economic repercussions.

Ooh, I think I heard something about that. Sounds cool if we can make it work, amazing what we can come up with when we put our heads together

Problem with modern environmentalism is that people want their governments to save the planet for them instead of doing something themselves.

Unfortunately, yes. It seems to be so. Cleaning of the environment must start from the house cleaning. Of our personal one. But if I have tried a couple of different variants in my house. Only this one worked. And only in such a process. So if you need to get the clean way here, it is better to start with these guys help and enjoy your favorite film while they are doing the work they are the best in.