The future of Toho done righto

JonahLee-France
MemberMothra LarvaeJan-31-2021 6:59 PMHi i started this discussion to talk about the what fans of Godzilla want in the future and this is where i want to start. I noticed while re-watching the millennium series i saw that their was a post credit at the end of Tokyo SOS, it showed that extracted Godzilla DNA from 3/11/1999 and that their going to begin a bio formation test experiment shall commence momentarily, Bio-formation of extinct subject commencing. Even tho this movie was made in 2003, it think they can do a lot with this as they could introduce ghidorah or something new but i hope this discussion can get toho attention and bring someone like masaaki tezuka to direct a new film or series, they even can make a sequel to gmk if the wanted to but what if we the fans wanted them to so i ask is this, plz help this become a reality as they can bring what we goji fans loved when young or old to make a nostalgic godzilla movies back to what they were.
I personally love the idea of CGI, to be able to take something you create and turn it into a moveable model. As for it being used to supply the audience, that is where it loses art. Being an artist myself, I have always tried going for realism in everything I do. I try to find out new techniques for my drawings to have a correct 3D shapes, how to cast shadows correctly, where is it more exposed more, etc. I prefer to draw realistically, but I don’t think that demeans from my creativity.
Yes CGI is forced onto artists, in the film industry, but I do not think that CGI itself is the problem, but as you say, is used used so much that any artistic meaning with it is nullified. Then again, I know a lot of these movies are loved, but later Showa Era movies, not specifically Godzilla, (after the first three movies) This is when tokusatsu started to make a lot of money, more movies were made with less budgets to gain money for the company.
We do not receive this today, so we know actually appreciate the art for what is was. But I think art is hard for Industry to handle. Industries will always go for money, even if it means sacrificing the integrity of the art they produce.
I’m not trying to demean Tokusatsu in any way, but saying that history repeats itself. One thing I find, especially in later films, is the lack of staging. Scenes in visual art, have to be staged for the eye to easily detect emotion through color, or positions of characters, and also to help guide the eye to look at the right things. Yes there are instances of staging in a lot of Tokusatsu, which could be considered part of the art, but that is what is commonly part of Abstract Art, which is hard and frustrating to look at and understand, (at least for me.)
Using these things, I will explain how I think Modern Tokusatsu would work. First, yes Godzilla would be portrayed in a city with miniatures. My camera angles would be different, instead of the action head one, I would try to make it more immersive, like in G 2014, where the camera angles would come from the people’s perspective. I would use debris to guide people’s eyes at the right characters, and use red and blue lights to create a clashing looking environment, like fire and Godzilla’s atomic breath. Now second, I would incorporate CGI. I would accurate render and cast light from certain parts of the scene, such as, one thing I don’t see much, Godzilla’s dorsal fins actually illuminating buildings around them, with blue. I would also add effects to make the suit look more life like, with blinking eyes, and subtle breathing effects.
That’s how I would do Tokusatsu.
expecting the worst, sets you up for thr worst
I think its noteworthy to mention that Jurassic Park series hasn't completely do away with practical effects.
Xenotaris,
They definitely tried though.
Jurassic park was never purely practical effects, much of the original was CGI
expecting the worst, sets you up for thr worst
It was a mixture of both. There are 14 minutes of dinosaur visual effects in the original Jurassic Park. About 4 minutes used CG.
The point is Trevorrow wanted to use significantly more animatronics in Jurassic World, but the studio didn't allow him. That number is significantly different.
In any case, realism is fine if realism is what you're going for, but it's overused and CG has become boring to look at. Besides, realism is not why I got into the Godzilla franchise--I probably wouldn't be a fan if it were about realism. And tokusatsu fits the franchise much better, especially since it's the reason tokusatsu exists.
@Gman
Your last statement confuses me. I said I like realism when I create art and appreciate it in others art. But I never said it was the reason I like Godzilla. Personally I think realism suits some of the very well, some are Gojira 1954 and Shin Godzilla and G(14) Godzilla didn’t start out as the fun franchise that many people know of today. I understand how you feel about CGI, but I kind of like fast food.
expecting the worst, sets you up for thr worst
SarcasticGoji,
Just because Godzilla '54, for example, wasn't "fun" doesn't mean it was "realistic". Out of the gate, Tsuburaya was not trying to compete with Hollywood. He called upon Japan's technique for miniatures inspired by bonsai plants, and the like, to create a completely unique look unto Japan. And he did.
That look endures today as a decision made by tokusatsu filmmakers. It's far less prevalent and more unique of a look than the fast food we see today.
I guess I didn’t explain my reasoning, it was realistic I the sense that there was a natural disaster that had to be stopped. I don’t mean every tiny detail. If you watch the first two movies, you can see the difference.
I like In and Out
expecting the worst, sets you up for thr worst
actually Gman, the reason why Godzilla became a Tokusatsu wasn't out of art but out of efficiency (Time is money friend!). Originally Godzilla was going to be stop-motion like King Kong (1933) but it would have taken Toho several years to complete all of the stop motion effects and that would have been very expensive for Japan's first monster movie. Initially Gojira was a flop in japan but became a success in America through Godzilla: King of the Monsters! (1956) which help pole vault Godzilla's popularity in Japan years later after the American Edit was redubbed in Japanese.
This is off topic, But I love the little editing mistakes in the original. The movie is great, but it’s age does show a little.
expecting the worst, sets you up for thr worst
Xenotaris,
You're half right. While Tsuburaya wanted to use stop motion special effects, he calculated before Godzilla was even designed that such a project would take exactly seven years to complete.
According to the book, "Eiji Tsuburaya: Master of Monsters", tokusatsu was developed as an art form out of the necessity of time. So while the style was developed due to resource constraints, Tsuburaya had no interest in turning back from it once the ball was rolling. Remember, after Godzilla '54 Tsuburaya had access to some of the most advanced visual effects technology in the world, including an optical printer of which only four existed by the time he got one. Tsuburaya founded a successful style, not unlike film noir of the 1940s or German expressionism in the 1920s and he wasn't turning back.
As far as "Gojira was a flop in japan" that is categorically, 150% false. I'm not sure where you got that idea, because literally every viable source speaks to the contrary.
According to Kogyotsushin, in 2021, the original film is the oldest movie in the top 25 most attended films of all time. It has an attendance record of 9.62 million which is higher than every Godzilla movie in Japan except for one. It was even more successful than Seven Samurai of the same year by 2.62 million tickets. The book, "Ishiro Honda: A Life in Film from Godzilla to Kurosawa" says, "The film set a new opening day record for a Toho feature," and explains how it sold out theaters. "Eiji Tsuburaya: Master of Monsters" also says it broke box office records becoming one of the biggest films of the year, earning awards and establishing Toho as, "the world's premier visual effects facility."
So while the 1956 cut, Godzilla, King of the Monsters helped Godzilla reach international fame, it was already a box office smash in Japan. There is no reason they would have fast tracked Godzilla Raids Again for a release three months later had it not been. There also would have been no insentive to green light Rodan and The Mysterians, both of which were completed before the American cut's release.
From a scientific view, any fact has at least a small amount of bias. Plus as much as we love and respect the creators of Godzilla. We were not there. We do not truly know their thoughts and motivations. And Xenotarus chose to look at what happened in one way, while Gman chose another. Simply stating that something is used too much by producers or came from a tight budget does not get rid of any artistry that can be achieved.
One thing also. Godzilla isn’t real. As much as we love characters, they don’t exist. They are not ours. The creators get ownership, Yet their lives did not just revolve around Godzilla or Ultraman. They had lives too. Evidence of this is after Ishiro Honda was asked to make another film for the Hesei era, he said something along the lines of, “Can’t you let me make something else?” I just wanted to say that people’s memories get fractured over time. We don’t know how much they remembered. I recently moved, and I thought it was life changing, but now I find it hard to picture the old house.
My point is, the people who created Godzilla, indeed are People.
First Comment
expecting the worst, sets you up for thr worst
okay I was wrong about the flop but imagine if they would have used stop motion rather than suitmation
Xenotaris,
We would've gotten far less Godzilla movies, many adored franchises, TV series and films like Super Sentai and Ultraman would not exist, the series might've gone on a hiatus even sooner with no garuntee of returning due to the fall of Japanese cinema in the late 60s & economic crisis in the mid-70s and a unique style of visual effects would not be included in cinema history.
Sounds boring.
In any case, I may not seem like but I am a big fan of Tokusatsu-style special effects but I also a big fan of Stop-Motion, Puppetry, Go-Motion, Animatronics, and yes the big bad CGI. Special Effects are all awesome, beats watching a non-special effect movie
I think it’s unfair to say on special effect is better than the other. Comparing the two and saying which is better does not make it a fact, but a statement of opinion.
In my opinion problems I have with CGI,
- Often Not done well,
- Over used in certain films, and you can tell there is no set.
- So big and loud that it detracts from the acting
- Even done well, you can still tell the difference
My Problems with Tokusatsu,
- More expensive
- limited flexibility
- Sacrifices logic and believability
- Not that expressive
- Suits are prone to breaking and decay
I think that used together,
CGI and Tokusatsu could be amazing.
expecting the worst, sets you up for thr worst
Also Xenotaris, I’ve been trying to identify the theropod on the picture below your statements, (please remind me what they’re called), I thought it was a juvenile Dilophosaurus, but now I’m not sure
expecting the worst, sets you up for thr worst
Anyone up for Shin Godzilla vs. Legendary Godzilla?